Saturday, 15 October 2016

History - Curses vs verses



History – Curse legends

An OAC member wrote: “...The reason why Apostel Klibbe retain the name Old Apostolic was because something happened during the court case. One of the other members who was against Apostol Klibbe broke his leg after Apostol Klibbe told the court this would happen. See in our church if you dont listen you surely will see what attitude you should have...”

An Ex-OAC member wrote: “...when apostle Klibbe had said that the dogs would lick that other apostle's blood off the street, and it came to pass, that was the OAC's claim that apostle Klibbe was the true Apostle, that his word was indeed God. The OAC seemed to be boastful of this horrific accident...”

Another Ex-OAC member wrote: “...its very difficult to get out because of the "curse" threats. But it can be done! Its total brainwashing...”

A former OAC “elder” wrote: “...There are many members and officers who don't believe everything, but are too scared to leave because of the curse they place on people. Why I was so blind I don't know...”

Compare the above statements to what’s written in the Bible.

Luke 9:1-2 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.

Some non-OAC members have also written about being “cursed” by members of the OAC. Non-OAC members believe OAC members send bad “spirits” to their homes to cause havoc as soon as there is some kind of a disagreement between them. In many cultures, witch doctors or shamans put “curses” on people through demonic powers. With all evil witchcraft rituals, it is the hatred and evil projected from these people that is aimed at the targeted person.

Firstly, if you believe you are cursed then you are cursed because the curse then becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

When you give a person credit for every time things go wrong, then you are giving them that power over you and way too much credit.

According to the law of average, things will break and things will go wrong. According to the law of average, we will get sick and yes, every one of us will eventually die too. Was Job cursed because he lost everything? Was the apostle Paul cursed when he was stoned, beaten, jailed, shipwrecked and eventually persecuted in Rome? Were Jesus’ apostles cursed when they were killed for their faith in Jesus as the only Messiah? Was John cursed when he was exiled to the island of Patmos?

When we explore the OAC “curse” legends in more detail we come to realise it’s nothing more than wishful thinking and a paper tiger.

Grrr!

According to the legend about Klibbe cursing some other “apostle”, it couldn’t have been “apostle” Schlaphoff, because he died peacefully in the arms of his wife in 1928. A few years after the court case Klibbe himself died in 1931.

According to another version of this legend, it was Carl Klibbe’s son-in-law, “apostle” Heinrich Velde who was cursed. Heinrich Velde left Klibbe’s movement in 1925 to start the Apostolic Church. But Carl Klibbe died first, six years after this split. Heinrich Velde died thirty-one years after this split in a car accident and I found nothing about dogs licking his blood.

The only conclusion that I can reach is that the curse legend exists only in the minds of those who believe it. The legends are probably perpetuated to keep members “in their place”. What a terrible way to keep people loyal to the OAC.

So what are the top twenty single underlying causes of death in South Africa according to the Revised Burden of Disease estimates for the Comparative Risk Factor Assessment for South Africa, 2000?

The largest single cause of death for 2000 was HIV/AIDS accounting for 132,990 (25.5%) deaths. This is at least five times greater than the next largest single cause of death. Ischaemic heart disease and stroke follow with about 6.5% of the deaths and tuberculosis and interpersonal violence are next in the ranking, each accounting for about 5.5% of deaths. Males have higher proportions of deaths due to homicide/violence, tuberculosis and road traffic accidents than females. Females have higher proportions of deaths due to HIV/AIDS, stroke, hypertensive heart diseases and diabetes mellitus. The overall profile remains that of a quadruple burden which is dominated by HIV/AIDS but also has the conditions associated with under-development, chronic diseases and injuries (http://www.mrc.ac.za/bod/faq.htm).

With 6.3 million people living with high blood pressure, South Africa has one of the highest rates of hypertension worldwide according to the heart foundation. This makes South Africans more susceptible to life-threatening diseases like stroke and heart disease. Statistics show that about 130 heart attacks and 240 strokes occur daily in South Africa. This means that 10 people will suffer a stroke and five people will have a heart attack every hour. According to the Heart and Stroke Foundation SA, a staggering 80% of these cardiovascular diseases could be prevented through modified behaviour – like reducing salt (http://www.heartfoundation.co.za/media-releases/salt-killing-south-africans-and-it-time-take-action).

The top twenty causes of death in South Africa are not the result of one person cursing another.

There is no danger in putting a ship in the sea, the only danger is when the sea enters the ship and the ship starts sinking. Likewise with the children of God, the danger is not when we are surrounded by evil but when evil enters our thoughts and our lives.

Ephesians 4:20-27 But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil.

Curses can work against you if you are in rebellion or not walking in faith and love. However, if we are walking where God wants us to walk, a hundred curses against us would just bounce off and would do us no harm.

James 4:1-8 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Sickness, tragedy, or bad circumstances occurring in your life could be interpreted as evil coming to you in some way. This does not mean that every difficult circumstance that we go through is a curse. A good sailor didn’t learn to sail in a calm pond. Often we have no control over what comes our way in life, but we can adjust our choices, our attitudes and how we handle everything from gentle breezes to the gusts and storms of life.

We should daily adjust our sails in life toward God and living the principles in the Bible. If we do that, we will arrive at the destination God wants for each of us.

Sometimes we have storms in our lives that allow our true potential to be seen. These opportunities allow us to experience sorrow and joy while giving us the opportunity to show admirable character. There are none more admired and respected than those who bravely face the storms of life—they are an inspiration to us all.

Romans 5:3-5 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

James 1:2-4 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

The Bible is filled with men and women who were storm survivors - people of God who endured great pain and weathered intense life storms because they chose to follow Him. Paul, known for persecuting and murdering Christians, was forever changed when he met Jesus Christ. While God gave him a life of great power and eternal impact, it was also a life filled with great storms. Paul learned to endure the troubles, hardships and calamities that came his way.

2 Corinthians 6:4-10 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true; As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

Sometimes God leads us through circumstances to stretch our faith. This is for our own good, as it is helping us to grow stronger and identify ourselves with Him. However, He is not bringing anything upon us, but rather leading us through a circumstance so that we might experience His overcoming power. We will go through difficult, faith-testing circumstances. Taking our eyes off Jesus and focusing on the troubling circumstances will cause us to sink under our problems.

If you seek advice or prayer, feel free to leave a comment. I won’t publish your comment if you wish to remain anonymous. Alternatively you can send an email.



16 comments:

  1. That is, if the "curse" theory is true! It is again the straw man argument where a false belief is created, and then the false belief is attacked. This theory has its origin in the 1980's when FW Werner published his books. It must be noted that Werner himself belonged to the Apostolic Faith Mission that was founded in 1904 by a conman and fraudster. When he was unable to get hold of South African money, he returned to the USA and founded another church.
    The "curse" theory was escalated by the "Curse Theology" movement within pentecostalism in the 1990's after the Great Satanic Panic in the US in the 80's that was transplanted to SA in the 90's. I have experience in research in the OAC for more than 35 years and never ever found that the "curse" thing was policy of the OAC. I have heard several Apostles, including HH Ninow, Boshoff, Campbell, Nieuwenhuizen, Matthysen, Scholtz and Robus speak out against curses. It is a sure fact that when the critics do not have evidence, they manufacture that evidence.

    But keep going! Don't let me stop you.

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    1. Growing up in the OAC the curse legend was always spoken of, this is not manufactured evidence. Both my parents believed the legend to be true about Klibbe cursing the other “apostle” and those dogs licked his blood. I found that I wasn’t the only one that heard of such legends; I received confirmation from other sources that also grew up in the OAC. Every community I was in, the curse legend was known of in various formats. You’re going off on a tangent about FW Werner in the 1980’s; the curse legend existed long before that! It was something I grew up with; there are others which I didn’t care to mention. You’re an active member of the OAC and you were brought up in the OAC, you know in your heart that what I said is true. By the way, you yourself confirmed the very same thing on your blog and fortunately I made a screen print of your post, I see you have deleted your post. But keep going; don’t let me stop you from being hypocritical.

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    2. “…I have heard several Apostles, including HH Ninow, Boshoff, Campbell, Nieuwenhuizen, Matthysen, Scholtz and Robus speak out against curses…” – Sane Serenity

      HH Ninow was ordained as an “apostle” long before the 1980’s. The “apostles” do not hold services for non-OAC members. If the “apostles” have to speak out against curses to their congregations ever since 1960 up until now then it’s quite obviously a problem within the OAC.

      Sane Serenity himself wrote the following:

      “…the ANC sent a representative to beg for money from the church, just after its unbanning. The church declined, and as the ANC member exited the church office and walked over the street, he was killed by an oncoming vehicle. The story I heard, was that the ANC claimed much more than money, and wanted the church’s endorsement and wanted to use the church as a platform…” – Sane Serenity (Is the critics cursed? Monday, September 19, 2016)

      “…Klibbe told him that he would die and dogs would lick his blood dog. In actuality, the story relates to Hendrik Velde, an Apostle that was removed in 1927 by Klibbe. Velde died in 1956 in a car accident and dogs licked his blood…” – Sane Serenity (Is the critics cursed? Monday, September 19, 2016)

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    3. LOL :-D en daar slat “insane se renitie” sy naam met ‘n plank! skryf hy so ewe vroom op sy eie blog hy’s ‘n “non-apostolic”. ja raait! dankie ex-oac, daar wys hy sy ware kleure as 'n skynheilige liegbek.

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  2. The authority of a Officer of the OAC is laid out in the Constitution of the OAC, the Household Rules and the Handling Manuel. Never in any of these documents is there a mention of curses or how it should be done. It is therefore not part of the OAC theology. Each prayer ends with a blessing, making or contradicting a curse.

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    1. A curse isn’t a prayer; it’s an utterance wishing evil upon someone. Not everything done by members of the OAC is in writing. Members of the OAC believe the words they speak are God, whether it is a curse or a blessing.

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  3. Curse is not possible, due to the blessing that should end all prayers.

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    1. A curse isn’t a prayer or a blessing, I agree.

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  4. Hi!

    People who are saved should not worry about curses, or devils. Since the Holy Ghost dwells within us, how could a demon attack or enter us?

    See 1 Corinthians 3:16, 1 Corinthians 6:19, 2 Corinthians 6:16, 2 Timothy 1:14, Romans 8:9, 8:11

    Just one of the many benefits of being saved, and salvation is by faith alone in Jesus Christ! (Romans 3:12, 3:23, 6:23, 10:8-13) Not of works! (Romans 4:5, Ephesians 2:8-9, 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 and more)

    Of course, once one is saved, God shall still punish us in this lifetime when we sin. E.G. if you drink alcohol, don't be surprised to get liver failure. If you fornicate, don't be shocked if you get an STD. That's dealt with in detail in Hebrews 12:5-14.

    But to those who are not saved, besides the harrowing prospect of everlasting Hellfire upon death, they can be targeted and infested with devils as the Bible shows (E.G. Luke 8, Mark 5). So if an unbeliever were to curse another unbeliever, or send devils, or whatever, don't discount that possibility of it being real. But NOT for a saved believer. We are protected!

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    1. True, I think a lot of people don't realize the consequences of their actions.

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    2. @Ex-OAC, will you be posting new articles again?

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    3. Yes, I have a few in draft format. I'm also going through the existing posts with the intention of updating them in further detail and references. Is there anything specific you'd like posted or have questions about?

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  5. I am Christian and dating a OAC woman.It is becoming a problem and they are trying to convince me they are correct. I have a lot of questions but your posts really helps. They also keep quoting the Bible about the gifts they have and also that the order of their church is as it is in the BibLe. I would also love to read your view on the visions and dream interpretation. The one thing that makes me think is when they see souls entering the gates of heaven in the sealing service. Also like 5 or 6 ppl writes doen what they see and it is exactly the same souls or spirits they see. So if independent ppl see the same souls in church do they then have a point or a case about their religion being the correct one?

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    1. You say my “posts really helps” and that the OAC say “the order of their church is as it is in the BibLe”. Have you read my post: Doctrine – Apostles today (http://oldapostolicchurchrevealed.blogspot.co.za/2016/08/doctrine-apostles-today.html)? Have you seen my post: History – The schism tree (http://oldapostolicchurchrevealed.blogspot.co.za/2016/08/history-schism-tree.html)?

      What you’re describing about spirits is not much different to what one would expect to find in séances etc. If you’re a Christian you would also know what the Bible has to say about “familiar spirits” (Leviticus 19:31, Leviticus 20:6, Deuteronomy 18:10-12, 1 Samuel 28:3-14, 2 Kings 21:6, Isaiah 8:19-20 etc.). Once a person dies, they are unable to interact with the living (Isaiah 26:14, Luke 16:19-31). Do not believe every spirit (1 John 4:1-3) because they are either angels of light or angels of darkness. Angels from God usually take on the form of man to bring messages to God’s people (Luke 1:11-38, Luke 2:9-14 etc.). God’s angels don’t appear as familiar spirits, but as strangers (Hebrews 13:2).

      Not all dreams or visions are true simply because people claim their so-called “gifts” are from God (Jeremiah 23:31-32, Jeremiah 29:8-9, Zechariah 10:2). False prophets can also perform wonders and lie in God’s name (Deuteronomy 13:1-3, Jeremiah 23:25-32). Wicked and unsaved people can also receive “gifts” from God (Daniel 2:1, Daniel 4:4-5, Matthew 27:19).

      You’re welcome to write to me at ExOldApostolic@gmail.com, I’d like to keep the comments on topic for the relevant posts. My advice to you is to read the verses they’re quoting in their proper context. If you’re a Christian and know your Bible you won’t be mislead. Allow the Holy Spirit to guide you. You need to examine everything carefully with the standard of truth - Scripture (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

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  6. Can oac members explain if god jesus and the holy spirit is one on whos right hand wil jesus go and sit because god is jeaua and jesus is god so why didnt jesus just say he wil go and sit in hes own chair or thrown why say jesus wil go and sit on the right hand of hes father

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  7. The word of god said that we shoul stay away from people who take part in meduim spirits who is fortune tellers and who is trys so communicate with the dead why would people in the oac stil see spirits and or have people in the church who can work with evil spells god said stay away notfrom these things he didnt say if its out of good or bad earthly or spiritualy .....

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