Sunday, 8 January 2017

Doctrine - prophecies, dreams and visions



“Gifted” prophets and dreamers

An OAC member wrote: “…The Old Apostolic Church is build on this foundation of “spiritual gifts”. All matters are decided on it. Apostles are chosen based on visions, prophecies and dreams…”

“…Just like the early Gnostics, the Old Apostolic Church belief in revelations through visions, dreams and prophecies…”

“…In 1972 the aged and sick Apostle Robert Lombard of the Old Apostolic Church received, according to his believers some revelations that the church must defy the Government and support the Anti-Apartheid movement…”

Robert William Lombard

In 1948 the South African Government adopted apartheid and the OAC complied by the racial segregation of their communities. For many years the non-white members complained of racial inequality.

Robert William Lombard was ordained on May 11th, 1958 as an “apostle” of the OAC to serve non-white communities. He was ordained by “apostle” William Campbell in the Maitland Town Hall, Cape Town. 11 days later, “apostle” William Campbell died. In 1971 “apostle” Robert William Lombard received a “gift” (revelation). He claimed that Jesus spoke to him and told him to go and free his people. As a result of this, there was a dispute between him and the OAC leadership. On January 21st, 1972, “apostle” Robert William Lombard was excommunicated from the OAC and started his own church (Non-white Old Apostolic Church).

The leadership of the OAC made submissions to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, a court-like restorative justice body assembled in South Africa after the abolition of apartheid in 1994. The details of these submissions have not been made public. Shortly before the abolition of apartheid there were questionable changes made to the format for the serving of the sacrament of “avondmaal” (Communion) in 1993. In anticipation of the fall of apartheid and the inevitable possibility of white and black lips drinking from the same cup, the apostolate changed the sacrament. Instead of a shared cup, a pair of tweezers would be used to dip the matzo into the cup before being placed into a member’s hand. Before this change, the officer would place the matzo in your hand after which you would take a sip from a shared cup.

An OAC member commented on a photo of “apostles” Masencamp, Lombard and Ninow: “...Apostle Ninow was ordained two days after the death of Apostle Masencamp. But due to the Prophet, Gpd made it known that Ap. Masencamp will leave the flesh. Therefore why Ap Ninow is with hom on tje photo. This is proof of the power of the Prophet in the church...” 

An Ex-OAC member wrote: “...Prophets – responsible for all Prophetic Gifts dreams and vision...”

“...a few members or officers may be seized with the urge to Prophesy. This will be a short speech – after each prophecy the Presiding Officer will say “Amen”. After a few Prophesies (usually three or four) the Presiding officer will continue with his prayer ending with Amen. After a few more prophesies and one more hymn the congregation is told to sit and the sermon commences...”

“...After around 45 to 50 minutes the service is concluded with a hymn, perhaps a prophecy or two and the Benediction...”

A non-OAC member wrote: “…Een oom nooi die kinders om hulle drome aan die huis priesteres mee te deel. (Dis nou die mamma) Dan sal sy dit met die profeet deel. Hy sal dan die droom uitlê en die kinders moet dink hoe trots gaan die huispriester en priesteres wees as die profeet Sondag in die kerk daardie droom vir almal uitlê. Daar was toe ‘n nuwe profeet voorgestel.…”
For those of you who don’t understand Afrikaans, this person is saying that “...One uncle invites the children to share their dreams with the house priestess. (That’s now the mommy) Then she will share it with the prophet. He will then interpret the dream and the children must think how proud the housepriest and priestess will be if the prophet on Sunday interprets the dream for everyone. Then there was a new prophet introduced...”

OAC members are instructed to write down their dreams as soon as they wake up. These are considered to be “gifts” and given to their “priest”. The “priest” will read it and determine if it pertains to the member who gave it to him or someone else in the community. If the “gift” is not meant for the community, it goes to the “elder” who will determine if the gift applies to the “eldership” which consists of several communities. If the “gift” is not meant for the “eldership”, it goes to the “prophet” who will determine if it applies to the “overseership” which consists of several “elderships”. In this manner a “gift” can eventually end up with the “apostle”.

In the back of each church hall there are pens and paper for writing down visions. These are basically like dreams you imagine while you’re awake and these are also considered to be “gifts”. Visions are treated in the same way as dreams. These “gifts” travel up and down “Jacob’s ladder”, the “gifts” go “up” to the “apostle” and the “apostle” reciprocates by dispensing “teaching” based on the “gifts” he receives.

Prophecies are like prayers said out loud during a service; specific time is allocated for this before the main sermon. Members are encouraged to just open their mouths and start speaking because the “spirit” will place the words on their tongues.

Depending on the context of a dream or vision, the following symbolism is used for interpretation (these are just a few examples):
  • Colours could indicate the various offices of the ministry.
  • Gold usually means love because it becomes purified and softer through fire.
  • Silver usually means truth because it becomes purified through fire and you can see your image in it.
  • Circle or ring usually means eternity because a circle has no beginning or end.
  • Death usually means rebirth because a seed must first die before a tree can grow.
  • Woman usually means a soul or a church.
  • Man usually means “gift” or sower of the seed because it’s the word that “impregnates” the mind.
  • Mountain usually means the church.
  • Water usually means words being preached. There are 3 “streams”; prophetic, shepherd and evangelistic. There's another view that there are 4 "streams"; apostle, prophet, evangelist and overseer.
  • Lion usually means “apostle” because he is supposedly the lion of Judah or the first beast in Revelation 4:7.
  • Calf usually means “overseer” or the shepherd stream because of his “tender” association with the community and is supposedly the second beast in Revelation 4:7.
  • Face of a man usually means the “evangelist” or evangelical stream because he is the face to the world and supposedly the third beast in Revelation 4:7.
  • Eagle usually means the “prophet” or prophetic stream because he is able to see far ahead and supposedly the fourth beast in Revelation 4:7.
  • Donkey or mule usually means the flesh of the OAC member because they supposedly carry the “gift” of Christ. The sinful flesh of the OAC member is supposedly Jesus.
  • Bones or skeleton usually mean the order of the OAC. Not following the OAC order is considered to be breaking the bones of the lamb.
  • Sun usually means the “apostle” because his “light” can blind the “world”.
  • Moon usually means the “evangelist” or evangelist stream which includes the “underdeacon” because they reflect the “light” of the sun to the “world”.
  • Stars usually mean the members of the OAC because individually they’re little suns in the image of their “apostle”.
  • Earth or ground usually means the “world” i.e. mind of a man or people who aren’t members of the OAC.

You can read more of how some of these symbols are interpreted “spiritually”:

OAC members claim their church is built on the foundation of the apostle and prophet. Let’s take a brief historical look at some of the apostles and prophets which formed the foundation of the OAC.

Edward Irving, a minister in the Church of Scotland, preached in his church at Regent Square in London on the speedy return of Jesus Christ. He earnestly preached that the end of the world was nigh and that the church had sinned grievously by not instituting all the “posts” as he understood them in Ephesians 4:11. Edward Irving pleaded for the immediate introduction of the apostolate so that the “apostle” designate could “seal” the believers for salvation.

In 1826 Edward Irving became associated with the Albury conferences at his friend Henry Drummond’s estate in Surrey, Albury Park. Henry Drummond was a wealthy London banker and Member of Parliament and these conferences were concerned with unfulfilled prophecy and followed by study of the prophetical books and the apocalypse.

Edward Irving wrote and published a book, Babylon and Infidelity foredoomed - A Discourse on the Prophecies of Daniel and the Apocalypse which relate to these latter times, and until the Second Advent (1826, 2nd edition 1828). C. H. Spurgeon described the book as “More of rolling sound than anything else”.

Edward Irving proclaimed that the events in France and beyond were clearly predicted in the book of Revelation and in Daniel (Irving, Babylon, 1:191–93, 218–26, 233–34, 240–41; 2:11–35). He also expected that Christ would return soon and set up an earthly Millennium (Irving, Babylon, 1:32, 192, 205–206; 2:8, 138–47, 155–56). Indeed, he even went as far as to say that he expected the Jews to return to Palestine by 1847 (Irving, Babylon, 2:225–28) and that Christ would come back by 1868 (Irving, Babylon, 1:173–75, 2:152, 218–19).

Below are a few of the false prophecies from his book, The last days: a discourse on the evil character of these our times, providing them to be the "perilous times" of the "last days":

“...The times and the fullness of the times, so often mentioned in the New Testament, I consider as referring to the great period numbered by times; the days, to the thirty and the forty-five days by which the course of the Lord’s purposes overwent the three times and a half. Of these days, I should consider the forty-five days to be the last of the days in which these great events are to be revealed. Now, if this reasoning be correct, as there can be little doubt that the one thousand two hundred and sixty days concluded in the year 1792, and the thirty additional days in the year 1823, we are already entered upon the last days, and the ordinary life of a man will carry many of us to the end of them....” – Edward Irving, page 21

“...Now, in all the vision the Jewish people are not once mentioned till xii. 1, when they are delivered immediately upon the fall of Anti-christ, which is not yet happened, and is, as we believe, just about to arrive....” – Edward Irving, page 22

“...I consider it, therefore, to be clear, from the book of Daniel, that the latter days do signify the time at which the Jewish people shall enter into the long promised and long delayed kingdom, after the four Gentile monarchies shall have been brought to an end by the Stone of Israel, which is to come out of Joseph–at which time the characteristic predictions of Jacob shall begin to have their accomplishment....” – Edward Irving, page 23

Edward Irving wrote and published several books; last mentioned book can be downloaded here: https://archive.org/details/lastdaysdiscours00irviuoft. Edward Irving was the leader of the church out of which the Catholic Apostolic Church emerged.

Edward Irving’s lectures on the Second Advent inspired Henry Drummond, a wealthy banker and Member of Parliament, to start a series of conferences on the interpretation of biblical prophecy. In 1826 Henry Drummond invited about 30 clergymen and laymen for a conference in Albury Park, in order to clear various interpretations of prophecies concerning the apocalypse under the influence of prayer and Bible study. Edward Irving was also invited. The focus of these revelations was the imminent return of Jesus Christ.

At a prayer meeting in 1832, Henry Drummond named Advocate John Bate Cardale as an “apostle”. Advocate John Bate Cardale was recognized as the first “living apostle” of the movement and he in turn ordained Henry Drummond as the “angel” of the group.

In 1833 Henry Drummond became the second "living apostle" and was later assigned responsibility for Scotland and Switzerland. Edward Irving succeeded Henry Drummond as ʺangelʺ of the church. Within 2 years their “prophets” had called 12 “living apostles”.

After a long period of combined preparation, these “apostles” started to travel around the world. During 1837 and 1838, they undertook missionary journeys to mainland Europe, Canada, and the USA. The main point of their gospel was that the Church had deviated from its origins and only through restoring the “Universal Church” to its perfect state could the return of Christ be ensured.

The end of the church's “prophetical” element was underlined by the adoption in 1843 of an elaborate new liturgy.

After the death of 3 “apostles” in 1855 the “apostolate” declared that there was no reason to call new “apostles”.

During a meeting at Albury in 1860, the German “prophet” Heinrich Geyer called 2 “evangelists” to be “apostles”. After deliberation, the “apostles” rejected this calling and affirmed that no further callings to the apostolate would be accepted.

On October 10th, 1862, Heinrich Geyer called Rudolf Rosochacki to be an “apostle” while staying in his home. On January 4th, 1863, most of the Hamburg congregation accepted the calling of Rudolf Rosochacki to the “apostolate”. A few days later “apostle” Rudolf Rosochacki became doubtful of the divine origin of his calling as an “apostle” after meeting with some of the other “apostles”. After a few weeks Rudolf Rosochacki receded.

On January 26th, 1863 “angel” Friedrich Wilhelm Schwartz met with “apostle” Francis Valentine Woodhouse in Berlin and expressed his belief in the need to continue the “apostle” ministry. On February 6th, 1863 “apostle” Francis Valentine Woodhouse informed the Hamburg congregation in writing of its expulsion from the Catholic Apostolic Church.

When their “apostles” started dying out they decided to change their expectation of the future. From then on they began to hope in the imminent rapture of the congregation they had already gathered.

After its expulsion in writing from the Catholic Apostolic Church by “apostle” Francis Valentine Woodhouse (February 6th, 1863), the Hamburg congregation along with “prophet” Heinrich Geyer, split off to form the Allgemeine Apostolische Mission in 1863. This is commonly known as the "Hamburg Schism".

On April 12th, 1863, a “deacon” called “priest” Carl Wilhelm Louis Preuss as an “apostle” which was confirmed by “prophet” Heinrich Geyer. On May 25th, 1863, Friedrich Wilhelm Schwartz was also called as an “apostle”.

Thus the German "apostles" started from scratch in much the same way as the Albury “apostles” did.

Heinrich Geyer the “prophet” called Johannes F.L. Güldner as an “apostle” and successor of “apostle” Carl Wilhelm Louis Preuss in a service on August 4th, 1878. When Johannes F.L. Güldner was to be ordained, some members including Friedrich Krebs objected. The majority of the Hamburg congregation also protested, so “elder” Wichmann stepped up to the altar and relieved “prophet” Heinrich Geyer from his ministry. Wichmann told “prophet” Heinrich Geyer that he had to leave, so “prophet” Heinrich Geyer left the church with 300 of his followers. Heinrich Geyer founded a new congregation in Hamburg named Apostolische Mission. His congregation eventually wasted away after his death in 1896.

The “apostle” Friedrich Krebs in his quest for the “Unity of the apostles” abolished the callings by mouth of the “prophets” and declared the office of “prophet” redundant, for “apostle” Friedrich Krebs would from then on appoint the most important ministers himself.

The new congregations referred to themselves as “new apostolic congregations” to distinguish themselves from the first “apostolic congregations” of the Catholic Apostolic Church. This is how the New Apostolic Church came to be.

The Old Apostolic Church split off from the New Apostolic Church. Apparently Carl Klibbe named his church “Old Apostolic” because he claimed to be dedicated to the “original doctrine”.
A tree is known by its fruit, false prophets are known by their false prophecies.

Not all dreams or visions are true simply because people claim their so-called “gifts” are from God (Jeremiah 23:31-32, Jeremiah 29:8-9, Zechariah 10:2).

Someone who was formally involved in the occult wrote the following: “...When I was involved with the occult, I could say the same thing about visions and dreams coming true. That is not proof they are from God...”

You can read more here:



False prophets can also perform wonders prophets can also perform wonders and lie in God’s name (Deuteronomy 13:1-3, Jeremiah 23:25-32). Wicked and unsaved people can also receive “gifts” from God (Daniel 2:1, Daniel 4:4-5, Matthew 27:19).

Matthew 24:23-28 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

You can read about the true apostles and prophets in the Bible. There is only one REAL Jesus and He is the ONLY Messiah.


37 comments:

  1. First Mistake: There is four streams (Gen 2:8-25) a reference to the fourfold ministry of Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist and Overseer (Shepard/Teacher Eph 4: 11). This also corressponds to the four beasts around the Throne of God.
    Second Mistake: The Sun is not the Apostle, but Christ.
    Third Mistake: Earth is not the world. It is two different concepts. The earth is the fruitful ground (mind of man) where the seed (testimony) is planted. The world is the dominion of Satan, of which the Church is not part of.
    Fourth Mistake: Death can have several meanings. Spiritual death, natural death or death of the fleshly desires. This must be read in context.
    Edward Irving can not be read and understood in the context of Baptism, as is often mistaken. To fully understand Irving, you must have a deep understanding of previous authors such as Jane Lead (Leadly), Jacob Bhome (Bhemen), Francis Lee, Isaac Newton, Manual Lacunza, James Hatley Frere, Joseph Mede and Henry Drummond as well as the periodic publication known at the time as The Morning Watch. Most of Irving's writings is just a repeat of what was stated by someone most Baptists would like to claim as one of their own, Isaac Newton. Like Leade, Irving's writings was never meant to describe natural occuring events as is often predicted by Baptists (like the Second Coming of which there is a very profitable industry like the Left Behind books and movies). Leade clearly stated that the return of Jesus Christ and the Kingdom of God will take the form of the etsblishment of a Church founded on the principles of the Bible. Irving never described the return of an antropomorphic god as is often depicted in Baptist literature.
    Concerning the last English Apostles, two Apostles (Perceval and Sitwell) of the Catholic Apostolic Church stated the reasons why no new Apostles was ordained. It was due to the fact that God was at that time creating a new Apostleship with more authority. The English Apostles viewed themselves as Moses, who would not enter the promised land, while the Church in Germany (according to Sitwell) was the Joshua (Jesus) that would enter the promised land or new Kingdom, and that eventually started in 1868 (just as Irving described in Babylon and Infidility Foredoomed as the return of Christ). (Again with emphasis on Jane Leade who stated that Christ's return is not a physical event, but the formation of the True Church).
    Concerning the schisms of 1895-1921 (New Apostolic Schisms or New Light Schisms), the 1925 Velde breakaway, the 1968-1972 schisms, this can be viewed as a form of purification. If gold is placed in a heated oven, it becomes more pure due to the unpure parts being removed. The Church becomes more pure with schisms by removing the impurities. It is so that there would always be a Judas who would betray Christ for his own fleshly gain. All schisms were due to personalities that would rather reign in hell than serve in heaven.
    Your referenced texts against dreams is about fake prophecies and dreams.
    Many Baptists are currently promoting the idea of dreams and even write about Jesus appearing to them. They include Rebecca Brown MD, Mary K. Baxter who even went to heaven and hell, http://www.cwgministries.org/Principles-of-Christian-Dream-Interpretation
    http://www1.cbn.com/guidelines-successfully-interpreting-spiritual-dreams
    http://www.learnthebible.org/what-does-the-bible-say-about-dreams.html

    Maybe clean your own house, before looking for filth where there is none.

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    1. You can split hairs if you wish.

      First mistake: The FOURfold office is the FOUR streams of which two streams are combined in one (overseer = pastor + teacher). The “apostle” is the “thumb”; the other FOUR fingers represent the FOURfold office.

      Second mistake: You contradicted yourself when you stated “…Christ is the Head, and Chief Priest, also known as the High Apostle…”

      Third mistake: You basically confirmed what I said, you just elaborated further. My summary started with “Depending on the context of a dream or vision”.

      Fourth mistake: You basically confirmed what I said, you just elaborated further. My summary started with “Depending on the context of a dream or vision”.

      Edward Irving was very influential in his day, the name Irvingism sticks to this very day. George Canning declared that Edward Irving “was the most powerful orator, in or out of the pulpit, he had ever heard”. The poet Samuel Taylor Coleridge referred to Edward Irving as “certainly the greatest orator, I ever heard”. In the middle of 1823, Samuel Taylor Coleridge called Irving “the present idol of the world of fashion.” James Hatley Frere, an English writer on prophecy, met Edward Irving in 1825 and influenced him in the direction of the study of biblical prophecy. The French Revolution and Napoleonic Wars featured prominently in discussions about the return of Christ. This assumed fulfillment of Scripture gave Edward Irving confidence that he could plot future events from Daniel and Revelation. A surprising number of people believed, like Edward Irving, that Christ would return in the 1860s. They obviously ignored Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32. Edward Irving believed in premillennialism but unsure if Christ would rule from heaven or on earth during the millennium (Irving, Babylon, 2:168–69. Also see 2:150).

      Regarding your logic about schisms, are you trying to imply that every new schism is a purer form of the church? Are you saying for instance that the TACC and ROAC are purer forms of the OAC?

      Well done for reading my reference texts, fake prophecies and fake dreams are the domain of fake apostles, fake prophets and fake churches.

      I can’t comment on Baptists or other churches because I grew up in the OAC. Your last sentence applies to your preceding paragraph. Look in the mirror.

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    2. “…All schisms were due to personalities that would rather reign in hell than serve in heaven…” – anonymous OAC member

      1863 – “angel” Friedrich Wilhelm Schwartz and his Hamburg congregation are expelled in writing from the Catholic Apostolic Church (Hamburg schism) and start a new church, Allgemeine Apostolische Mission (later to become the New Apostolic Church)
      1878 – “prophet” Heinrich Geyer leaves the Allgemeine christliche Apostolische Mission and starts a new congregation, Apostolische Mission, which wasted away in 1896
      1915 – “apostle” Carl Klibbe severs all connections with the New Apostolic Church and becomes the Old Apostolic Church of Africa in 1927
      1925 – “apostle” Heinrich Velde leaves Carl Klibbe’s movement and starts the Apostolic Church
      1968 – “apostle” Jim Scotch Ndlovu leaves the Old Apostolic Church and starts the Twelve Apostles Church of Africa
      1972 – “apostle” Robert William Lombard leaves the Old Apostolic Church and starts the Non-White Old Apostolic Church (later to become the Reformed Old Apostolic Church)

      This appears to be another example of the pot calling the kettle black.

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  2. A common mistake often made by people like you is to think that a person in the office as Apostle is equal to Christ. That is not the case. Christ is the Head, and Chief Priest, also known as the High Apostle. An ordained Apostles is a representative of Christ as the meaning is Ambassador. An Apostle would always during prayer call himself "a servant of Jesus Christ". A Priest would use the words "Sent by an Apostle of Jesus Christ". Apostles never refer to themselves as Christ or Jesus Christ, but that they bear the message from Jesus Christ.

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    1. You’re making the mistake of assuming that I’m writing as someone who wasn’t in the OAC. Christ is interpreted as the “gift” of “child”, “brother/sister”, “underdeacon”, “priest”, “elder”, “overseer”, “prophet”, “evangelist” and “apostle”. The “apostle” claims to be a servant of the OAC which is supposedly Jesus Christ.
      Question 21 of the OAC catechism affirms that the “Apostle” has been placed first in the church.
      Question 24 of the OAC catechism affirms that the “Apostle” knows the Father.
      Question 25 of the OAC catechism affirms that the “Apostle” speaks to God “face to face”.
      Question 35 of the OAC catechism affirms that the “Apostles” have been sent to preach the Gospel.
      Question 47 of the OAC catechism affirms that the “Apostles” can forgive sins.
      Question 50(f) of the OAC catechism affirms that the “Apostles” have been accepted as Ministers of Christ.

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  3. Read the Catechism again. Question 21 quote 1 Cor 12: 28. "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
    28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."
    Question 24 quotes John 14: 7 "and If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him." John 14: 19-20 "Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
    20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."
    Question 25 quotes Ex 33: 11 "And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle." and Numb 12: 8 "With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"
    Question 35 rightly quote that Apostles as Ambassadors was sent to preach the Gospel. Something the twelve of the Bible failed to do, as they never reached everybody through all time.
    Question 47 confirms that Apostles (Apostolics) (those sent out, not only the office bearer) can forgive sins as stated in John 20:23 (some catechisms do have a printing error that state John 2:23) "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained."
    Question 50 f. rightfully state that Apostles are ministers of Christ. Minister means servant. So an Apostle is a servant of Christ. 1 Cor 4: 1 "Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God." 1 Cor 3: 9 "For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building." aka Temple of God wherin God resides.

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    1. No thank-you, I’ll rather read my Bible with the quoted verses in their proper context.

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  4. Edward Irving was not a premilleniarist as you would like to claim. His own writings confirm it. CG Flegg (Gathered under Apostles) as well as Timothy Grass(The Lord's Watchman), both Professors in theology confirmed that Irving was influenced by the belief that the Bible should be interpreted spiritualy and that the second coming would not be a natural event.
    Irving clearly stated in the introduction to The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty by Manuel Lacunza that the Bible is not a natural book and do not predict natural events. It is evident later in Lacunza's book.
    Later Apostle Schwartz would confirm in his book "Het boek voor onze tijd" that the second coming is not a natural event.
    You are getting confused with the Millerites.

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    1. I’m not claiming anything, that’s the definition. Edward Irving was originally sympathetic with postmilleniallism but in ‘Babylon’ he strongly rejected that view. Premilleniallism is an understanding that Christ would dramatically break into this sinful world and suddenly set up his kingdom. In his book ‘Babylon’ he expressed doubts on whether Christ would return in a “personal or corporeal” sense. In this sense he interpreted the second coming as “spiritual” because he wasn’t sure on whether Christ would rule from heaven or earth during the millennium. Chiliasm is another word for premillennialism. The NAC claim to be a chiliastic church originating from the Catholic Apostolic Church. Lacunza’s book taught futurism and premillennialism but he did not claim certainty about the duration of Christ’s reign on earth. Lacunza also taught that there would be a period of tribulation before Christ’s return. Edward Irving described Lacunza’s book as “the finest demonstration of the orthodoxy of the ancient system of the millenarians which can be imagined; indeed, I may say perfect and irrefragable.”
      I have not been researching the Millerites.

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  5. Concerning the four streams I can again reference FW Schwartz who stated that the four streams are the Aposte, Prophet, Evangelist and Overseer with Christ as the fountain.
    Out of a text "The Four Rivers"
    The name of the first river was Pison; the 'out-flowing stream' and according to others the 'great spread of waters', but in essence both are the same. The Apostles of the Lord were appointed the spread of the Gospel. And we do see that soon after the Pentecost the Gospel was widely spread and continuing to do so.

    And the name of the second river is Gihon, Gihon it is that crosses the land of Kush'. Gihon means 'the pioneering stream' or also ' the uplifting'. Here were are noted by the office of prophet.

    ' The name of the third river is Hiddekel , going to the East of Assur. Hiddekel means 'quick or happily skipping river'.
    We hereby think of Isaiah 52:7: ' How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings...etc.'
    The Apostles were in the first place appointed to preach the Gospel, but they couldn't be everywhere at once, and so we see that for instance the Apostle Paul chose big centres for his work and therefrom sends his fellow workers Col. 1:7; 4:13, Phil. 2:25-30 .
    Timothy was likewise a travelling preacher of the Gospel- 2 Timothy 4:5 - just like Titus.
    The country of Assur whose name means ' luck ' was ripe for judgement because of sin but the town converted because of the preaching of Jona Luke 11:32 .
    Jona is the image of our Lord Jesus, the Saviour, who came to bring true happiness as a superior of Jona Luke 11:32.
    And so the Evangelists brought us true happiness of which an example is given us in Ephesians 2:11-22.

    'And the fourth river is Frath'. A short and powerful description , this name means 'freshwater-stream'.
    Its direction is not given and if the Frath were to be the Euphrates, it would run to Babel. The true meaning of the word Babel is not 'confusion' but Gate of God. Inside the gates of the old cities daily life took place and thus the fourth stream takes care of the inner life. Fertile substances are to be found in the earth that without irrigation cannot bring fourth anything.
    Thus the inner life of the community for which the elements have already been put into place must be brought to life via house-calls, comforting the ill, correcting the people that go astray, etc. We here see the words of Ephesians 4:11-16 have their basis in the first and the last book of the Bible.

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    1. Thanks for the lengthy explanation. I was taught that there are three streams as I explained in my previous comment, namely prophetic, evangelistic and shepherd. I was led to believe that the “apostle” has all three because he is the thumb of the hand of God. An “apostle” is ordained from the “fourfold office” anyway; to the best of my knowledge nobody has ever “skipped” an office to become an “apostle”. I can’t comment on what I wasn’t taught. Nobody referred me to any written material at the time. But then again, the OAC doctrine is too vast to be set out in words… If you want to reference an “apostle” ordained in 1863 after the Hamburg schism then that’s your prerogative. Lots of things have changed since then.

      The four rivers according to the KJV and Strongs (Genesis 2:10-14):
      Pison (dispersive; a river of Eden)
      Gihon (stream; a river of Paradise; also a valley or pool near Jerusalem)
      Hiddekel (probably of foreign origin; the Chiddekel or Tigris river)
      Euphrates (from an unused root meaning to break forth; rushing)

      Daniel describes standing on the banks of the Hiddekel while receiving one of his visions during the time when he was in exile (Daniel 10:4). The Hiddekel is widely accepted as being the Tigris which flows from southeastern Turkey through Iraq and eventually into the Persian Gulf.

      The Euphrates runs almost parallel to the Tigris and together these two rivers defined a large part of the cradle of civilization in ancient times. The Euphrates is later mentioned in the covenant between the LORD and Abram when his seed is promised the land between the river of Egypt and the Euphrates (Genesis 15:18). The Euphrates eventually joins the Tigris which runs to the Persian Gulf.

      Babel according to the KJV and Strongs (Genesis 11:9):
      Confusion; Babel (that is, Babylon), including Babylonia and the Babylonian empire: - Babel, Babylon.

      According to the Bible, the city derived its name from the Hebrew word bâlal which in this context means to jumble or confuse.

      In a spiritual sense, the water that Jesus gives us will spring up into everlasting life (John 4:14). When Jesus spoke of the rivers of living water, He was referring to the Holy Ghost (John 7:37-39). The river of water of life proceeds from the throne of God and of the Lamb (Revelation 22:1).

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    2. Until this day, no one could ever locate the Four Rivers in the real world.

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    3. Until this day there are a lot of things still to be discovered. Geography and places are always changing. Take the Castle of Good Hope for instance, it was originally built on the coastline but its now located inland. Satellites with ground penetrating radar have revealed some fascinating features, things which are no longer visible to the naked eye. That being as it may, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

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    4. Maybe the four rivers haven't been found because they were on the earth before the flood? A worldwide flood kinda changes things you know.

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  6. There is a saying that if you want to ride a tiger, you must stay on top. Are you willing to ride this tiger?

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    1. No thanks, leave me alone, I’m married!

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    2. You started this. You will be hounded. You already mounted the tiger.

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    3. Looks like a snowflake member of the OAC cult just got offended by your article, brother... great stuff!

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  7. You already did. So, don't fall off!

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    1. http://oldapostolicchurchrevealed.blogspot.co.za/2016/10/history-curses-vs-verses.html

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    2. Even if Ex-OAC Critic is riding a tiger, he has the saddle of Jesus Christ to keep him on there!

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    3. I'm not offended at all. In fact, it is hilarious, the stuff you come up with. Makes for great discussion during breadbreaking. Use it to build up members of the OAC against critics. So please don't stop.

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    4. I’m glad this makes for great discussion, long may the discussions continue and it’s my sincere hope and prayer that the scales will fall from your eyes. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, as hilarious as this may seem to you now. The OAC or your “owergestelde” or your “gift” cannot save you. It would be funny if it wasn’t so tragic.

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    5. Lol @ Anonymous. Using it to build up OAC members? Bring the detailed stuff down to a simple level; what makes the OAC any different to the SDA cult, since both religions were started by identifiable individuals who got "special revelation from God", and what makes the OAC any different to the Roman Catholics since both religions have a catechism which in their view supersedes the Bible? In both these examples, they have traits of a cult. The OAC has both traits.

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  8. That is a very big "if". You assume you are correct. Remember that even Jesus himself said that "you should not tempt the Lord." Luk 4: 12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

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    1. That’s rich coming from someone like you who doesn’t believe the Bible should be read literally.

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    2. But he's not tempting the Lord, he's calling out a fake cult which denies Jesus Christ is God, since they deny His literal being and bodily resurrection.

      1 John 4:1-3 - Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

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  9. Eph4:4.There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.…

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    1. John 16:4-7 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you. But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

      1 John 3:23-24 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

      1 John 4:12-15 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

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    2. john 10:33.The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

      34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’?[c] 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that

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    3. John 20:30-31 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

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  10. I don't understand what Anonymous say's about fourfold office. The OAC have only 3 people that make out the four? Why do the oac always ref. to Ef 4v11 if they don't aply it. They do have a person who they call Apostle, one who they call Prophet, one they call Evangelist, but there is no one called Pastor, nor Teacher. Can you believed it that they say the other churches is wrong when they don't have someone who is called Prophet. The oac change Ef4v11 to suit themselves. So this is the scary part about them. They change the whole Bible by saying everything is spiritual, but a few things the take natural, like wear a hat, money(tithes), and many more. Just by reading what Anonymous say's about the history show's me why it is necessary for Ex-OAC to continue with this blog.

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    1. Good day, Im also here reading what anonymous say just to ad on they claim 3 steams and when you ask them what is this 3 steam means they will tell you it is teachings but they have only 2 the shepherd and evangisliting teaching where is the third one

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  11. Hahahaha @go to the people and preach your gospel about the apostles there to prove......*man-up

    ungasusi izikhonkwane zabadala bazokshaya ndoda

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    1. @ indodana, I was there but nobody would listen. Then I commented on your facebook groups and blogs and was blocked or deleted…

      Ngokuba kuyakuba-khona isikhathi abangayikuvuma ngaso isifundiso esiphilayo, kepha ngokwezinkanuko zabo baya-kuzibuthela abafundisi njengokubatshwa kwezindlebe zabo, bafulathelise izindlebe zabo eqinisweni, baphambukele ezinganekwaneni. Ngokuba abanjalo bangabaphostoli bamanga, izisebenzi ezikhohlisayo, beziguqula abaphostoli bakaKristu. Akumangalisi, ngokuba usathane uqobo uziguqula ingelosi yokukhanya. Ngakho akuyinto enkulu, uma nezikhonzi zakhe ziziguqula izikhonzi zokulunga ezikuphela kwazo kuyakuba-njengokwemisebenzi yazo. Nina ningabakayihlo usathane, nithanda ukwenza izinkanuko zikayihlo. Yena wayengumbulali wabantu kwasekuqaleni, akemi eqinisweni, ngokuba iginiso lingekho kuye. Nxa ekhuluma amanga, ukhuluma okungokwakhe, lokhu engumqambimanga noyise wawo.

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  12. Hi,

    I'm trying to find more information on Klibbe amd his descendants.

    If anyone can help, please email me at morrison.pj@mail.com

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