“Gifted”
prophets and dreamers
An OAC member wrote: “…The Old Apostolic Church is build on this foundation of
“spiritual gifts”. All matters are decided on it. Apostles are chosen based on
visions, prophecies and dreams…”
“…Just like the early Gnostics, the Old Apostolic Church
belief in revelations through visions, dreams and prophecies…”
“…In 1972 the aged and sick Apostle Robert Lombard of the
Old Apostolic Church received, according to his believers some revelations that
the church must defy the Government and support the Anti-Apartheid movement…”
 |
| Robert William Lombard |
In 1948 the South
African Government adopted apartheid and the OAC complied by the racial segregation of their communities.
For many years the non-white members complained of racial inequality.
Robert William Lombard
was ordained on May 11th, 1958 as an “apostle” of
the OAC to serve non-white communities. He was ordained by “apostle”
William Campbell in the Maitland Town Hall, Cape Town. 11 days later, “apostle”
William Campbell died. In 1971 “apostle”
Robert William Lombard received a “gift” (revelation). He claimed that Jesus spoke to him and
told him to go and free his people. As a result of this, there was a dispute
between him and the OAC leadership. On January 21st, 1972, “apostle”
Robert William Lombard was excommunicated from the OAC and started his own church (Non-white Old Apostolic
Church).
The leadership of the OAC made submissions to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, a court-like restorative justice body assembled in
South Africa after the abolition of apartheid in 1994. The details of these
submissions have not been made public. Shortly before the abolition of
apartheid there were questionable changes made to the format for the serving of
the sacrament of “avondmaal” (Communion) in 1993. In
anticipation of the fall of apartheid and the inevitable possibility of white
and black lips drinking from the same cup, the apostolate changed the sacrament. Instead
of a shared cup, a pair of tweezers would be used to dip the matzo into the cup
before being placed into a member’s hand. Before this change, the officer would
place the matzo
in your hand after which you would take a sip from a shared cup.
An OAC member commented
on a photo of “apostles” Masencamp, Lombard and Ninow:
“...Apostle Ninow was ordained two days after the
death of Apostle Masencamp. But due to the Prophet, Gpd made it known that Ap.
Masencamp will leave the flesh. Therefore why Ap Ninow is with hom on tje
photo. This is proof of the power of the Prophet in the church...”
An OAC “priest” wrote: “…we
can train ourselves to dream if we want to give ourselves and understand the
importance.... Get a blessing from Priest... Pray profoundly before sleeping TO
dream. Be ready to record the dream. Fight drowsiness to not go back to sleep,
make it the first question on the lips of the family members each morning...
i.e. " Good morning, what did you dream by God's grace? ... and proper
written/verbal reporting to the Priest…”
An Ex-OAC member wrote:
“...Prophets – responsible for all Prophetic Gifts
dreams and vision...”
“...a few members or officers may be seized with the urge to
Prophesy. This will be a short speech – after each prophecy the Presiding
Officer will say “Amen”. After a few Prophesies (usually three or four) the
Presiding officer will continue with his prayer ending with Amen. After a few
more prophesies and one more hymn the congregation is told to sit and the
sermon commences...”
“...After around 45 to 50 minutes the service is concluded
with a hymn, perhaps a prophecy or two and the Benediction...”
A non-OAC member wrote: “…Een oom nooi die kinders om hulle drome aan die huis
priesteres mee te deel. (Dis nou die mamma) Dan sal sy dit met die profeet
deel. Hy sal dan die droom uitlê en die kinders moet dink hoe trots gaan die
huispriester en priesteres wees as die profeet Sondag in die kerk daardie droom
vir almal uitlê. Daar was toe ‘n nuwe profeet voorgestel.…”
For those of
you who don’t understand Afrikaans, this person is saying that “...One uncle
invites the children to share their dreams with the house priestess. (That’s
now the mommy) Then she will share it with the prophet. He will then interpret
the dream and the children must think how proud the housepriest and priestess
will be if the prophet on Sunday interprets the dream for everyone. Then there
was a new prophet introduced...”
OAC members are
instructed to write down their dreams as soon as they wake up. These are
considered to be “gifts” and given to their “priest”. The “priest” will read it and determine if it
pertains to the member who gave it to him or someone else in the community. If
the “gift” is not meant for the community, it goes to the “elder” who will determine if the “gift” applies
to the “eldership” which consists of several communities. If the “gift” is not
meant for the “eldership”, it goes to the “prophet” who will determine if it applies
to the “overseership” which consists of several “elderships”. In this manner a
“gift” can eventually end up with the “apostle”.
In the back
of each church hall there are pens and paper for writing down visions. These
are basically like dreams you imagine while you’re awake and these are also
considered to be “gifts”. Visions are treated in the same way as dreams. These
“gifts” travel up and down “Jacob’s ladder”, the “gifts” go “up” to the “apostle” and the “apostle” reciprocates by dispensing “teaching” based on the “gifts” he receives.
Prophecies
are like prayers said out loud during a service; specific time is allocated for
this before the main sermon. Members are encouraged to just open their mouths
and start speaking because the “spirit” will place the words on their
tongues.
Depending on
the context of a dream or vision, the following symbolism is used for
interpretation as a general rule of thumb (these are just a few examples):
- Colours usually indicate the various offices of the ministry
- Brown supposedly means “brother” because he needs to cross the dust of the “earth” on “testimony”. The “brother” is supposedly in the first “heaven” which is the “earth” created in Genesis 1:1
- Blue supposedly means “sister” because she is the power from “heaven” and “heaven” was created with the “earth” in Genesis 1:1
- Yellow supposedly means “underdeacon” because God is a jealous God and doesn’t want a single soul to go missing on “testimony”. The “underdeacon” apparently also symbolises the moon which is a soft yellowish light reflected from the sun
- Green supposedly means “priest” because he is the “shepherd” that leads the flock to green pastures as described in Psalms 23
- Red supposedly means “elder” which is understood as the “healer” because of his sacrifice (“blood”) to heal the servants
- Orange supposedly means “fourfold office” which is the “prophet/evangelist/overseer” as the sunrise over the sea
- White also supposedly means “fourfold office” which is the “prophet/evangelist/ overseer”
- Silver supposedly means “apostle”, the anointed one because he blesses everything good with a silver lining. Silver also usually means truth because it becomes purified through fire and you can see your image in it
- Gold usually means love because it becomes purified and softer through fire
- Circle or ring usually means eternity because a circle has no beginning or end
- Death usually means rebirth because a seed must first die before a tree can grow
- Woman usually means a soul or a “church”
- Man usually means “gift” or sower of the seed because it’s the word that “impregnates” the mind because OAC members believe the soul is feminine
- Mountain usually means the “church”
- “Water” usually means words being preached. There are 3 “streams”; prophetic, shepherd and evangelistic. There's another view that there are 4 "streams"; apostle, prophet, evangelist and overseer
- Lion usually means “apostle” because he is supposedly the lion of Judah or the first beast in Revelation 4:7
- Calf usually means “overseer” or the shepherd stream because of his “tender” association with the community and is supposedly the second beast in Revelation 4:7
- Face of a man usually means the “evangelist” or evangelical stream because he is the face to the “world” and supposedly the third beast in Revelation 4:7
- Eagle usually means the “prophet” or prophetic stream because he is able to see far ahead and supposedly the fourth beast in Revelation 4:7
- Donkey or mule usually means the flesh of the OAC member because they supposedly carry the “gift” of Christ. The sinful flesh of the OAC member is supposedly Jesus
- Bones or skeleton usually mean the order of the OAC. Not following the OAC order is considered to be breaking the bones of the lamb
- Sun usually means the “apostle” because his “light” can blind the “world”
- Moon usually means the “evangelist” or evangelistic stream which includes the “underdeacon” because they reflect the “light” of the sun to the “world”
- Stars usually mean the members of the OAC because individually they’re little suns in the image of their “apostle”
- “Earth” or ground usually means the “world” i.e. mind of a man or people who aren’t members of the OAC
You can read
more of how some of these symbols are interpreted “spiritually”:
OAC members claim
their church is built on the foundation of the apostle and prophet. Let’s take a brief historical
look at some of the apostles and prophets which formed the “foundation”
of the OAC.
Edward
Irving, a minister in the Church of Scotland, preached in his church at Regent
Square in London on the speedy return of Jesus Christ. He earnestly preached that the
end of the world was nigh and that the church had sinned grievously by not
instituting all the “posts” as he understood them in Ephesians 4:11.
Edward Irving pleaded for the immediate introduction of the apostolate so that
the “apostle” designate could “seal” the believers for salvation.
In 1826
Edward Irving became associated with the Albury conferences at his friend Henry
Drummond’s estate in Surrey, Albury Park. Henry Drummond was a wealthy London
banker and Member of Parliament and these conferences were concerned with
unfulfilled prophecy and followed by study of the prophetical books and the
apocalypse.
Edward
Irving wrote and published a book, Babylon and Infidelity foredoomed - A
Discourse on the Prophecies of Daniel and the Apocalypse which relate to these
latter times, and until the Second Advent (1826, 2nd edition 1828). C. H.
Spurgeon described the book as “More of rolling sound than anything else”.
Edward
Irving proclaimed that the events in France and beyond at the time were clearly
predicted in the book of Revelation and in Daniel (Irving, Babylon, 1:191–93,
218–26, 233–34, 240–41; 2:11–35). He also expected that Christ would return soon and set up an
earthly Millennium (Irving, Babylon, 1:32, 192, 205–206; 2:8, 138–47, 155–56). He
even went as far as to say that he expected the Jews to return to Palestine by
1847 (Irving, Babylon, 2:225–28) and that Christ would come back by 1868 (Irving,
Babylon, 1:173–75, 2:152, 218–19).
Below are a few of the false prophecies from his book, The last days: a discourse on the
evil character of these our times, providing them to be the "perilous
times" of the "last days":
“...The times and the fullness of the
times, so often mentioned in the New Testament, I consider as referring to the
great period numbered by times; the days, to the thirty and the forty-five days
by which the course of the Lord’s purposes overwent the three times and a half.
Of these days, I should consider the forty-five days to be the last of the days
in which these great events are to be revealed. Now, if this reasoning be
correct, as there can be little doubt that the one thousand two hundred and
sixty days concluded in the year 1792, and the thirty additional days in the
year 1823, we are already entered upon the last days, and the ordinary life of
a man will carry many of us to the end of them....” – Edward Irving, page 21
“...Now, in all the vision the Jewish
people are not once mentioned till xii. 1, when they are delivered immediately
upon the fall of Anti-christ, which is not yet happened, and is, as we believe,
just about to arrive....”
– Edward Irving, page 22
“...I consider it, therefore, to be
clear, from the book of Daniel, that the latter days do signify the time at
which the Jewish people shall enter into the long promised and long delayed
kingdom, after the four Gentile monarchies shall have been brought to an end by
the Stone of Israel, which is to come out of Joseph–at which time the
characteristic predictions of Jacob shall begin to have their accomplishment....” – Edward Irving,
page 23
Edward
Irving wrote and published several books; last mentioned book can be downloaded
here: https://archive.org/details/lastdaysdiscours00irviuoft.
Edward Irving was the leader of the church out of which the Catholic Apostolic Church
emerged.
Edward
Irving’s lectures on the Second Advent inspired Henry Drummond, a wealthy
banker and Member of Parliament, to start a series of conferences on the
interpretation of biblical prophecy. In 1826 Henry Drummond invited about 30
clergymen and laymen for a conference in Albury Park, in order to clear various
interpretations of prophecies concerning the apocalypse under the influence of
prayer and Bible study. Edward Irving was also invited. The focus of these
revelations was the imminent return of Jesus Christ.
At a prayer
meeting in 1832, Henry Drummond named Advocate John Bate Cardale as an “apostle”. Advocate John Bate Cardale was
recognized as the first “living apostle” of the movement and he in turn
ordained Henry Drummond as the “angel” of the group.
In 1833
Henry Drummond became the second "living apostle" and was later assigned
responsibility for Scotland and Switzerland. Edward Irving succeeded Henry
Drummond as ʺangelʺ of the church. Within 2 years their “prophets” had called 12
“living apostles”.
After a long
period of combined preparation, these “apostles” started to travel around the
world. During 1837 and 1838, they undertook missionary journeys to mainland
Europe, Canada, and the USA. The main point of their gospel was that the Church
had deviated from its origins and only through restoring the “Universal Church” to its perfect state
could the return of Christ be ensured.
The end of
the church's “prophetical” element was underlined by the adoption in 1843 of an
elaborate new liturgy.
After the
death of 3 “apostles” in 1855 the “apostolate”
declared that there was no reason to call new “apostles”.
During a
meeting at Albury in 1860, the German “prophet” Heinrich Geyer called 2
“evangelists” to be “apostles”. After deliberation, the “apostles” rejected this calling and
affirmed that no further callings to the apostolate would be accepted.
On October
10th, 1862, Heinrich Geyer called Rudolf Rosochacki to be an “apostle” while staying in his home. On
January 4th, 1863, most of the Hamburg congregation accepted the
calling of Rudolf Rosochacki to the “apostolate”. A few days later “apostle” Rudolf Rosochacki became
doubtful of the divine origin of his calling as an “apostle” after meeting with some of the
other “apostles”. After a few weeks Rudolf
Rosochacki receded.
On January
26th, 1863 “angel” Friedrich Wilhelm Schwartz met with “apostle” Francis Valentine Woodhouse in
Berlin and expressed his belief in the need to continue the “apostle” ministry. On February 6th,
1863 “apostle” Francis Valentine Woodhouse
informed the Hamburg congregation in writing of its expulsion from the Catholic Apostolic Church.
When their “apostles” started dying out they decided
to change their expectation of the future. From then on they began to hope in
the imminent rapture of the congregation they had already gathered.
After its
expulsion in writing from the Catholic Apostolic Church by “apostle” Francis Valentine Woodhouse
(February 6th, 1863), the Hamburg congregation along with “prophet”
Heinrich Geyer, split off to form the Allgemeine Apostolische Mission in 1863.
This is commonly known as the "Hamburg Schism".
On April 12th,
1863, a “deacon” called “priest” Carl Wilhelm Louis Preuss as an “apostle” which was confirmed by “prophet”
Heinrich Geyer. On May 25th, 1863, Friedrich Wilhelm Schwartz was
also called as an “apostle”.
Heinrich
Geyer the “prophet” called Johannes F.L. Güldner as an “apostle” and successor of “apostle” Carl Wilhelm Louis Preuss in a
service on August 4th, 1878. When Johannes F.L. Güldner was to be ordained,
some members including Friedrich Krebs objected. The majority of the Hamburg
congregation also protested, so “elder” Wichmann stepped up to the altar and
relieved “prophet” Heinrich Geyer from his ministry. Wichmann told “prophet”
Heinrich Geyer that he had to leave, so “prophet” Heinrich Geyer left the
church with 300 of his followers. Heinrich Geyer founded a new congregation in
Hamburg named Apostolische Mission. His congregation eventually wasted away
after his death in 1896.
The “apostle” Friedrich Krebs in his quest for
the “Unity of the apostles” abolished the callings by mouth of the “prophets”
and declared the office of “prophet” redundant, for “apostle” Friedrich Krebs would from then
on appoint the most important ministers himself.
The new
congregations referred to themselves as “new apostolic congregations” to
distinguish themselves from the first “apostolic congregations” of the Catholic Apostolic Church. This
is how the New Apostolic Church came to be.
The Old Apostolic Church split off from the New Apostolic Church. Apparently Carl
Klibbe named his church “Old Apostolic” because he claimed to be dedicated
to the “original doctrine”.
A tree is known by its fruit, false
prophets are known by their false prophecies.
Not all
dreams or visions are true simply because people claim their so-called “gifts”
are from God (Jeremiah
23:31-32, Jeremiah 29:8-9, Zechariah 10:2).
Someone who
was formerly involved in the occult wrote the following: “...When I was involved with the occult, I could say the same
thing about visions and dreams coming true. That is not proof they are from God...”
The ‘Occultopedia’ has
a whole section dedicated to dreams, visions and communication with the dead.
Their claims are not much different to that of the OAC.
You can read
more about dreams and prophecies here:
False
prophets can also perform wonders and lie in God’s name (Deuteronomy 13:1-3, Jeremiah
23:25-32). Wicked and unsaved people can also receive “gifts” from
God (Daniel
2:1, Daniel
4:4-5, Matthew 27:19).
OAC members believe
their church is Christ and insist that
because they have the “prophet”, their church is the right church. God spoke to the fathers in the
past through the prophets but in the last days God spoke by His Son (Numbers 12:6, Hebrews 1:1-2, Hebrews 3:5-9).
Prophecies will fail and shall be done away when that which is perfect shall
come (1
Corinthians 13:8-10, 1 John 3:2).
Matthew 24:23-28 Then
if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there;
believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false
prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were
possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before.
Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go
not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as
the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall
also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there
will the eagles be gathered together.
You can read
about the true apostles and prophets in
the Bible. There is only One REAL Jesus and He is the ONLY Messiah.
First Mistake: There is four streams (Gen 2:8-25) a reference to the fourfold ministry of Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist and Overseer (Shepard/Teacher Eph 4: 11). This also corressponds to the four beasts around the Throne of God.
ReplyDeleteSecond Mistake: The Sun is not the Apostle, but Christ.
Third Mistake: Earth is not the world. It is two different concepts. The earth is the fruitful ground (mind of man) where the seed (testimony) is planted. The world is the dominion of Satan, of which the Church is not part of.
Fourth Mistake: Death can have several meanings. Spiritual death, natural death or death of the fleshly desires. This must be read in context.
Edward Irving can not be read and understood in the context of Baptism, as is often mistaken. To fully understand Irving, you must have a deep understanding of previous authors such as Jane Lead (Leadly), Jacob Bhome (Bhemen), Francis Lee, Isaac Newton, Manual Lacunza, James Hatley Frere, Joseph Mede and Henry Drummond as well as the periodic publication known at the time as The Morning Watch. Most of Irving's writings is just a repeat of what was stated by someone most Baptists would like to claim as one of their own, Isaac Newton. Like Leade, Irving's writings was never meant to describe natural occuring events as is often predicted by Baptists (like the Second Coming of which there is a very profitable industry like the Left Behind books and movies). Leade clearly stated that the return of Jesus Christ and the Kingdom of God will take the form of the etsblishment of a Church founded on the principles of the Bible. Irving never described the return of an antropomorphic god as is often depicted in Baptist literature.
Concerning the last English Apostles, two Apostles (Perceval and Sitwell) of the Catholic Apostolic Church stated the reasons why no new Apostles was ordained. It was due to the fact that God was at that time creating a new Apostleship with more authority. The English Apostles viewed themselves as Moses, who would not enter the promised land, while the Church in Germany (according to Sitwell) was the Joshua (Jesus) that would enter the promised land or new Kingdom, and that eventually started in 1868 (just as Irving described in Babylon and Infidility Foredoomed as the return of Christ). (Again with emphasis on Jane Leade who stated that Christ's return is not a physical event, but the formation of the True Church).
Concerning the schisms of 1895-1921 (New Apostolic Schisms or New Light Schisms), the 1925 Velde breakaway, the 1968-1972 schisms, this can be viewed as a form of purification. If gold is placed in a heated oven, it becomes more pure due to the unpure parts being removed. The Church becomes more pure with schisms by removing the impurities. It is so that there would always be a Judas who would betray Christ for his own fleshly gain. All schisms were due to personalities that would rather reign in hell than serve in heaven.
Your referenced texts against dreams is about fake prophecies and dreams.
Many Baptists are currently promoting the idea of dreams and even write about Jesus appearing to them. They include Rebecca Brown MD, Mary K. Baxter who even went to heaven and hell, http://www.cwgministries.org/Principles-of-Christian-Dream-Interpretation
http://www1.cbn.com/guidelines-successfully-interpreting-spiritual-dreams
http://www.learnthebible.org/what-does-the-bible-say-about-dreams.html
Maybe clean your own house, before looking for filth where there is none.
You can split hairs if you wish.
DeleteFirst mistake: The FOURfold office is the FOUR streams of which two streams are combined in one (overseer = pastor + teacher). The “apostle” is the “thumb”; the other FOUR fingers represent the FOURfold office.
Second mistake: You contradicted yourself when you stated “…Christ is the Head, and Chief Priest, also known as the High Apostle…”
Third mistake: You basically confirmed what I said, you just elaborated further. My summary started with “Depending on the context of a dream or vision”.
Fourth mistake: You basically confirmed what I said, you just elaborated further. My summary started with “Depending on the context of a dream or vision”.
Edward Irving was very influential in his day, the name Irvingism sticks to this very day. George Canning declared that Edward Irving “was the most powerful orator, in or out of the pulpit, he had ever heard”. The poet Samuel Taylor Coleridge referred to Edward Irving as “certainly the greatest orator, I ever heard”. In the middle of 1823, Samuel Taylor Coleridge called Irving “the present idol of the world of fashion.” James Hatley Frere, an English writer on prophecy, met Edward Irving in 1825 and influenced him in the direction of the study of biblical prophecy. The French Revolution and Napoleonic Wars featured prominently in discussions about the return of Christ. This assumed fulfillment of Scripture gave Edward Irving confidence that he could plot future events from Daniel and Revelation. A surprising number of people believed, like Edward Irving, that Christ would return in the 1860s. They obviously ignored Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32. Edward Irving believed in premillennialism but unsure if Christ would rule from heaven or on earth during the millennium (Irving, Babylon, 2:168–69. Also see 2:150).
Regarding your logic about schisms, are you trying to imply that every new schism is a purer form of the church? Are you saying for instance that the TACC and ROAC are purer forms of the OAC?
Well done for reading my reference texts, fake prophecies and fake dreams are the domain of fake apostles, fake prophets and fake churches.
I can’t comment on Baptists or other churches because I grew up in the OAC. Your last sentence applies to your preceding paragraph. Look in the mirror.
“…All schisms were due to personalities that would rather reign in hell than serve in heaven…” – anonymous OAC member
Delete1863 – “angel” Friedrich Wilhelm Schwartz and his Hamburg congregation are expelled in writing from the Catholic Apostolic Church (Hamburg schism) and start a new church, Allgemeine Apostolische Mission (later to become the New Apostolic Church)
1878 – “prophet” Heinrich Geyer leaves the Allgemeine christliche Apostolische Mission and starts a new congregation, Apostolische Mission, which wasted away in 1896
1915 – “apostle” Carl Klibbe severs all connections with the New Apostolic Church and becomes the Old Apostolic Church of Africa in 1927
1925 – “apostle” Heinrich Velde leaves Carl Klibbe’s movement and starts the Apostolic Church
1968 – “apostle” Jim Scotch Ndlovu leaves the Old Apostolic Church and starts the Twelve Apostles Church of Africa
1972 – “apostle” Robert William Lombard leaves the Old Apostolic Church and starts the Non-White Old Apostolic Church (later to become the Reformed Old Apostolic Church)
This appears to be another example of the pot calling the kettle black.
@ Anonymous, you’re writing rubbish. You wrote “Jane Leade who stated that Christ's return is not a physical event, but the formation of the True Church”
DeleteHere is what Jane Leade really wrote in 1679 as part of her 60-point prophecy:
23. This Catholic and anointed church must be perfectly holy, as CHRIST himself is holy; so that it may worthily bear the name of the Lord our Holiness, and the Lord our Righteousness.
24. Until there be such a church made ready upon the earth, so holy, so catholic, and so anointed, that is without all spot or wrinkle, and that is adorned as a bride to meet her bridegroom, CHRIST will not personally descend to solemnize this marriage, and present the same to his Father.
Jane Leade theorized that the seven churches in Revelation stood for seven successive stages of church history, she was especially interested in the church at Philadelphia. She was involved in a movement called “The Philadelphian Society”.
A common mistake often made by people like you is to think that a person in the office as Apostle is equal to Christ. That is not the case. Christ is the Head, and Chief Priest, also known as the High Apostle. An ordained Apostles is a representative of Christ as the meaning is Ambassador. An Apostle would always during prayer call himself "a servant of Jesus Christ". A Priest would use the words "Sent by an Apostle of Jesus Christ". Apostles never refer to themselves as Christ or Jesus Christ, but that they bear the message from Jesus Christ.
ReplyDeleteYou’re making the mistake of assuming that I’m writing as someone who wasn’t in the OAC. Christ is interpreted as the “gift” of “child”, “brother/sister”, “underdeacon”, “priest”, “elder”, “overseer”, “prophet”, “evangelist” and “apostle”. The “apostle” claims to be a servant of the OAC which is supposedly Jesus Christ.
DeleteQuestion 21 of the OAC catechism affirms that the “Apostle” has been placed first in the church.
Question 24 of the OAC catechism affirms that the “Apostle” knows the Father.
Question 25 of the OAC catechism affirms that the “Apostle” speaks to God “face to face”.
Question 35 of the OAC catechism affirms that the “Apostles” have been sent to preach the Gospel.
Question 47 of the OAC catechism affirms that the “Apostles” can forgive sins.
Question 50(f) of the OAC catechism affirms that the “Apostles” have been accepted as Ministers of Christ.
Read the Catechism again. Question 21 quote 1 Cor 12: 28. "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
ReplyDelete28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."
Question 24 quotes John 14: 7 "and If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him." John 14: 19-20 "Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."
Question 25 quotes Ex 33: 11 "And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle." and Numb 12: 8 "With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"
Question 35 rightly quote that Apostles as Ambassadors was sent to preach the Gospel. Something the twelve of the Bible failed to do, as they never reached everybody through all time.
Question 47 confirms that Apostles (Apostolics) (those sent out, not only the office bearer) can forgive sins as stated in John 20:23 (some catechisms do have a printing error that state John 2:23) "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained."
Question 50 f. rightfully state that Apostles are ministers of Christ. Minister means servant. So an Apostle is a servant of Christ. 1 Cor 4: 1 "Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God." 1 Cor 3: 9 "For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building." aka Temple of God wherin God resides.
No thank-you, I’ll rather read my Bible with the quoted verses in their proper context.
DeleteEdward Irving was not a premilleniarist as you would like to claim. His own writings confirm it. CG Flegg (Gathered under Apostles) as well as Timothy Grass(The Lord's Watchman), both Professors in theology confirmed that Irving was influenced by the belief that the Bible should be interpreted spiritualy and that the second coming would not be a natural event.
ReplyDeleteIrving clearly stated in the introduction to The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty by Manuel Lacunza that the Bible is not a natural book and do not predict natural events. It is evident later in Lacunza's book.
Later Apostle Schwartz would confirm in his book "Het boek voor onze tijd" that the second coming is not a natural event.
You are getting confused with the Millerites.
I’m not claiming anything, that’s the definition. Edward Irving was originally sympathetic with postmilleniallism but in ‘Babylon’ he strongly rejected that view. Premilleniallism is an understanding that Christ would dramatically break into this sinful world and suddenly set up his kingdom. In his book ‘Babylon’ he expressed doubts on whether Christ would return in a “personal or corporeal” sense. In this sense he interpreted the second coming as “spiritual” because he wasn’t sure on whether Christ would rule from heaven or earth during the millennium. Chiliasm is another word for premillennialism. The NAC claim to be a chiliastic church originating from the Catholic Apostolic Church. Lacunza’s book taught futurism and premillennialism but he did not claim certainty about the duration of Christ’s reign on earth. Lacunza also taught that there would be a period of tribulation before Christ’s return. Edward Irving described Lacunza’s book as “the finest demonstration of the orthodoxy of the ancient system of the millenarians which can be imagined; indeed, I may say perfect and irrefragable.”
DeleteI have not been researching the Millerites.
Concerning the four streams I can again reference FW Schwartz who stated that the four streams are the Aposte, Prophet, Evangelist and Overseer with Christ as the fountain.
ReplyDeleteOut of a text "The Four Rivers"
The name of the first river was Pison; the 'out-flowing stream' and according to others the 'great spread of waters', but in essence both are the same. The Apostles of the Lord were appointed the spread of the Gospel. And we do see that soon after the Pentecost the Gospel was widely spread and continuing to do so.
And the name of the second river is Gihon, Gihon it is that crosses the land of Kush'. Gihon means 'the pioneering stream' or also ' the uplifting'. Here were are noted by the office of prophet.
' The name of the third river is Hiddekel , going to the East of Assur. Hiddekel means 'quick or happily skipping river'.
We hereby think of Isaiah 52:7: ' How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings...etc.'
The Apostles were in the first place appointed to preach the Gospel, but they couldn't be everywhere at once, and so we see that for instance the Apostle Paul chose big centres for his work and therefrom sends his fellow workers Col. 1:7; 4:13, Phil. 2:25-30 .
Timothy was likewise a travelling preacher of the Gospel- 2 Timothy 4:5 - just like Titus.
The country of Assur whose name means ' luck ' was ripe for judgement because of sin but the town converted because of the preaching of Jona Luke 11:32 .
Jona is the image of our Lord Jesus, the Saviour, who came to bring true happiness as a superior of Jona Luke 11:32.
And so the Evangelists brought us true happiness of which an example is given us in Ephesians 2:11-22.
'And the fourth river is Frath'. A short and powerful description , this name means 'freshwater-stream'.
Its direction is not given and if the Frath were to be the Euphrates, it would run to Babel. The true meaning of the word Babel is not 'confusion' but Gate of God. Inside the gates of the old cities daily life took place and thus the fourth stream takes care of the inner life. Fertile substances are to be found in the earth that without irrigation cannot bring fourth anything.
Thus the inner life of the community for which the elements have already been put into place must be brought to life via house-calls, comforting the ill, correcting the people that go astray, etc. We here see the words of Ephesians 4:11-16 have their basis in the first and the last book of the Bible.
Thanks for the lengthy explanation. I was taught that there are three streams as I explained in my previous comment, namely prophetic, evangelistic and shepherd. I was led to believe that the “apostle” has all three because he is the thumb of the hand of God. An “apostle” is ordained from the “fourfold office” anyway; to the best of my knowledge nobody has ever “skipped” an office to become an “apostle”. I can’t comment on what I wasn’t taught. Nobody referred me to any written material at the time. But then again, the OAC doctrine is too vast to be set out in words… If you want to reference an “apostle” ordained in 1863 after the Hamburg schism then that’s your prerogative. Lots of things have changed since then.
DeleteThe four rivers according to the KJV and Strongs (Genesis 2:10-14):
Pison (dispersive; a river of Eden)
Gihon (stream; a river of Paradise; also a valley or pool near Jerusalem)
Hiddekel (probably of foreign origin; the Chiddekel or Tigris river)
Euphrates (from an unused root meaning to break forth; rushing)
Daniel describes standing on the banks of the Hiddekel while receiving one of his visions during the time when he was in exile (Daniel 10:4). The Hiddekel is widely accepted as being the Tigris which flows from southeastern Turkey through Iraq and eventually into the Persian Gulf.
The Euphrates runs almost parallel to the Tigris and together these two rivers defined a large part of the cradle of civilization in ancient times. The Euphrates is later mentioned in the covenant between the LORD and Abram when his seed is promised the land between the river of Egypt and the Euphrates (Genesis 15:18). The Euphrates eventually joins the Tigris which runs to the Persian Gulf.
Babel according to the KJV and Strongs (Genesis 11:9):
Confusion; Babel (that is, Babylon), including Babylonia and the Babylonian empire: - Babel, Babylon.
According to the Bible, the city derived its name from the Hebrew word bâlal which in this context means to jumble or confuse.
In a spiritual sense, the water that Jesus gives us will spring up into everlasting life (John 4:14). When Jesus spoke of the rivers of living water, He was referring to the Holy Ghost (John 7:37-39). The river of water of life proceeds from the throne of God and of the Lamb (Revelation 22:1).
Until this day, no one could ever locate the Four Rivers in the real world.
DeleteUntil this day there are a lot of things still to be discovered. Geography and places are always changing. Take the Castle of Good Hope for instance, it was originally built on the coastline but its now located inland. Satellites with ground penetrating radar have revealed some fascinating features, things which are no longer visible to the naked eye. That being as it may, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.
DeleteMaybe the four rivers haven't been found because they were on the earth before the flood? A worldwide flood kinda changes things you know.
DeleteThere is a saying that if you want to ride a tiger, you must stay on top. Are you willing to ride this tiger?
ReplyDeleteNo thanks, leave me alone, I’m married!
DeleteYou started this. You will be hounded. You already mounted the tiger.
DeleteI don't mount tigers.
DeleteLooks like a snowflake member of the OAC cult just got offended by your article, brother... great stuff!
DeleteYou already did. So, don't fall off!
ReplyDeletehttp://oldapostolicchurchrevealed.blogspot.co.za/2016/10/history-curses-vs-verses.html
DeleteEven if Ex-OAC Critic is riding a tiger, he has the saddle of Jesus Christ to keep him on there!
DeleteI'm not offended at all. In fact, it is hilarious, the stuff you come up with. Makes for great discussion during breadbreaking. Use it to build up members of the OAC against critics. So please don't stop.
DeleteI’m glad this makes for great discussion, long may the discussions continue and it’s my sincere hope and prayer that the scales will fall from your eyes. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, as hilarious as this may seem to you now. The OAC or your “owergestelde” or your “gift” cannot save you. It would be funny if it wasn’t so tragic.
DeleteLol @ Anonymous. Using it to build up OAC members? Bring the detailed stuff down to a simple level; what makes the OAC any different to the SDA cult, since both religions were started by identifiable individuals who got "special revelation from God", and what makes the OAC any different to the Roman Catholics since both religions have a catechism which in their view supersedes the Bible? In both these examples, they have traits of a cult. The OAC has both traits.
DeleteThat is a very big "if". You assume you are correct. Remember that even Jesus himself said that "you should not tempt the Lord." Luk 4: 12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
ReplyDeleteThat’s rich coming from someone like you who doesn’t believe the Bible should be read literally.
DeleteBut he's not tempting the Lord, he's calling out a fake cult which denies Jesus Christ is God, since they deny His literal being and bodily resurrection.
Delete1 John 4:1-3 - Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Eph4:4.There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.…
ReplyDeleteJohn 16:4-7 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you. But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Delete1 John 3:23-24 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1 John 4:12-15 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
john 10:33.The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
Delete34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’?[c] 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that
John 20:30-31 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
DeleteI don't understand what Anonymous say's about fourfold office. The OAC have only 3 people that make out the four? Why do the oac always ref. to Ef 4v11 if they don't aply it. They do have a person who they call Apostle, one who they call Prophet, one they call Evangelist, but there is no one called Pastor, nor Teacher. Can you believed it that they say the other churches is wrong when they don't have someone who is called Prophet. The oac change Ef4v11 to suit themselves. So this is the scary part about them. They change the whole Bible by saying everything is spiritual, but a few things the take natural, like wear a hat, money(tithes), and many more. Just by reading what Anonymous say's about the history show's me why it is necessary for Ex-OAC to continue with this blog.
ReplyDeleteGood day, Im also here reading what anonymous say just to ad on they claim 3 steams and when you ask them what is this 3 steam means they will tell you it is teachings but they have only 2 the shepherd and evangisliting teaching where is the third one
DeleteHahahaha @go to the people and preach your gospel about the apostles there to prove......*man-up
ReplyDeleteungasusi izikhonkwane zabadala bazokshaya ndoda
@ indodana, I was there but nobody would listen. Then I commented on your facebook groups and blogs and was blocked or deleted…
DeleteNgokuba kuyakuba-khona isikhathi abangayikuvuma ngaso isifundiso esiphilayo, kepha ngokwezinkanuko zabo baya-kuzibuthela abafundisi njengokubatshwa kwezindlebe zabo, bafulathelise izindlebe zabo eqinisweni, baphambukele ezinganekwaneni. Ngokuba abanjalo bangabaphostoli bamanga, izisebenzi ezikhohlisayo, beziguqula abaphostoli bakaKristu. Akumangalisi, ngokuba usathane uqobo uziguqula ingelosi yokukhanya. Ngakho akuyinto enkulu, uma nezikhonzi zakhe ziziguqula izikhonzi zokulunga ezikuphela kwazo kuyakuba-njengokwemisebenzi yazo. Nina ningabakayihlo usathane, nithanda ukwenza izinkanuko zikayihlo. Yena wayengumbulali wabantu kwasekuqaleni, akemi eqinisweni, ngokuba iginiso lingekho kuye. Nxa ekhuluma amanga, ukhuluma okungokwakhe, lokhu engumqambimanga noyise wawo.
Hi,
ReplyDeleteI'm trying to find more information on Klibbe amd his descendants.
If anyone can help, please email me at morrison.pj@mail.com
Apostel beteken God se gevolmagtigde volgens die griekse woord shaliag , veskoon tog as ek die griekse woord dalk verkeerd spel
ReplyDeleteDie Afrikaanse woord “apostel” in die Afrikaanse Bybel is die vertaling van die Griekse woord “apostolos” (ἀπόστολος) wat beteken 'n afgevaardigde; spesifiek 'n ambassadeur van die Evangelie; amptelik 'n kommissaris van Christus ('apostel'), (met wonderbaarlike magte): - apostel, boodskapper, hy wat gestuur word. Ek het dit meer in detail hier bespreek:
DeleteDoctrine - Apostles today: http://oldapostolicchurchrevealed.blogspot.co.za/2016/08/doctrine-apostles-today.html
Gaan kyk weer ek het dit op die e sword bible gesien, as u mooi gaan kyk dan sal u dit sien, daar is baie vertalings van die bybel op daardie program as ek dit so mag noem, dit wat u sê het ek ook gelees in elk geval as iemand n ambassadeur is dan tree jy op vir die een wat jou gestuur het met volmag, maar daar by is daar ook beperkings,waar jy nie kan doen wat jy wil nie,ek het gelees dat die Grieke die Apostel shalliag genoem het,wat dan soos ek reeds gesê het dit beteken God se gevolmagtigde,en in Lukas 24vers45 het Jesus die Apolstels se verstand geopen om die skrif te verstaan ,ek lees nie dat hy iemand anders se verstand geopen het nie, al wat ek wil sê is dat ons moet dink voordat ons praat, in 1Kor2 vers 14 sê dat die dinge van die Gees van God geestelik beoordeel moet word,
ReplyDeleteHeel toevallig het ek ook die “e sword bible” en daardie program het ook die Strongs woordeboek in, gaan kyk weer. Die woord “apostel” kom van die Griekse vertaling, volgens die Strongs woordeboek is die Griekse woord “apostolos” (ἀπόστολος G652). Daar is nie so Griekse woord soos “shalliag” nie, die Strongs Griekse woordeboek begin met “A” (Α G1) en eindig met “ōphelimos” (ὠφέλιμος G5624). Die Griekse alfabet begin dus met Alfa en eindig met Omega. Nêrens onder die letter Sigma kom die woord “shalliag” voor nie. Stuur asseblief vir my die verwysings waar u gelees het “dat die Grieke die Apostel shalliag genoem het”.
DeleteEk het dit meer in diepte hier bespreek, gaan lees dit asseblief:
http://oldapostolicchurchrevealed.blogspot.co.za/2016/08/doctrine-apostles-today.html
Daar is net één Apostel wat met ‘n hoofletter gespel word, en Hy is ook die Hoëpriester van ons belydenis, Christus Jesus [HEB 3:1]. Hy is die énigste lewende Apostel wat die Heilige Gees vir ons kan stuur [JOH 16:7]. Verder het Jesus nét twaalf apostels uitverkies toe Hy hier op aarde was as Sy ambassadeure en aan hulle het Hy die mag gegee om onreine geeste uit te dryf, en elke siekte en elke kwaal te genees [MAT 10:2, LUK 22:14-16, OPE 21:10-14]. Paulus was die laaste en geringste van al die apostels aan wie Jesus verskyn het [1KOR 15:7-9]. Paulus het die kentekens van ‘n apostel onder die Korinthiërs verwerklik deur tekens, wonders en kragtige dade [2KOR 12:12]. Toe die elf apostels iemand moes kies om Judas se amp as opsiener oor te neem, het hulle iemand gekies wat ‘n getuie van Jesus se opstanding was. Dit moes iemand wees wat saam met hulle rondgegaan het die hele tyd toe die Here Jesus in die openbaar opgetree het, vandat Hy deur Johannes gedoop is totdat Hy in die hemel opgeneem is. Nét twee kon voldoen aan hierdie vereistes, Josef wat Bársabas genoem word (Justus) en Matthías. Die lot het op Matthías geval om die apostelskap te verkry [HAND 1:12-26].
DeleteDie Christelike kerk is gebou op die fondament van dié bogenoemde ware apostels (Nuwe Testament) en profete (Ou Testament) terwyl Jesus Christus self die hoeksteen is [EFE 2:19-22]. Niemand kan ‘n ander fondament lê as wat daar gelê is nie, dit is Jesus Christus [1KOR 3].
Ek wil graag die volgende 5 vragies stel aan enige hedendaagse persoon wat die sogenaamde amp/titel van “apostel” dra:
1) Wie het jou as apostel aangestel?
2) By watter hospitale/klinieke werk jy om elke siekte en elke kwaal te genees?
3) Watter kenteken van ‘n ware apostel het jy al geopenbaar, naamlik tekens, wonders en kragtige dade?
4) Was jy ‘n getuie van Jesus se opstanding?
5) Wanneer was jy saam met die elf apostels toe hulle rondgegaan het die hele tyd toe die Here Jesus in die openbaar opgetree het, vandat Hy deur Johannes gedoop is totdat Hy in die hemel opgeneem is?
There are many false prophets who want people to believe that they have prophetic gifts from God. There is a very simple test to know whether they’re from God or not, does their personal revelation agree with what’s written in the Bible?
ReplyDeleteIf private revelations agree with Scriptures, they are needless.
And if they disagree, they are false. – John Owen
False prophets will say something along the lines of “But God speaks to me like He spoke to Moses, Elijah and all the other prophets in the Old Testament!”
In the past God did indeed speak by the prophets, but that was before God spoke to us by His Son (Heb 1:1-2). Today He speaks to us loud and clear through the words of Christ (Joh 6:63-69; Col 3:16; 2Ti 3:15-17).
“Receive every apostle that comes to you as you would the Lord. But he must not stay more than one day, or two if necessary: but if he stays three days, he is a false prophet. When an apostle leaves you, give him nothing except bread until he finds shelter. If he asks for money, he is a false prophet.” – The Didache on teachers, apostles and prophets
Delete” The average salary of the Apostels were R100 000 per MONTH.
The average salary of the Fourfold officers that worked for Head Office from 8 to 5 pm as an employee on a natural basis, was around R60 000 per month.
Then, they also got a FULL 100% Bonus In November, which meant a juicy R100 000 to R120 000 salary. And these positions that these Fourfold officers held were very mundane positions of managing maintenance on the halls and so on. Something that any other person could do for R25 000 per month.
On top of that, they received R15 000 house subsidies.
Cell phone alowences and also shared a pool car and received travel allowances.
These exorbitant salaries and perks totalled 60% of the cost to run KZN region.
Yes.. only 40% of the funds/ tithes were allocated to maintenance of halls, municipal costs and so on.” – 2014 Financial Documents and Budgets for OAC KZN
Wat gebind is op aarde sal gebonde bly Ek glo dat ons ht i kragtige magtige woord en die woord Sal plek neem Die vraag is al hierdie dinge wat in wèreld gebeur moes dit dan nie eers aan Sy volk bekend geword het nie moes ons ni eerste weet wat voorlè Indien wel tot nou toe was nix gesè dat die profeet ht gespreek
ReplyDeleteElder Kubheka invite you to be part of Spruitview Youth Session on Prophetic Gifts Prophecy, Vision and Dreams: 31 August 2019 at 19h00 https://oldapostolic.zoom.us/j/9384891906
ReplyDeleteHow to hear God's voice today?
DeleteCommon Dream Meanings You Should NEVER Ignore!
DeleteGood day Beloved, RE: Online Funeral of Prophet RJ Cole: The service of Prophet RJ Cole will be electronically broadcast on Su. 24 Jan. 2021 from 9:45 on this link: https://youtu.be/zKg2M_U3z6A Greetings in Christ, The OAC WC
ReplyDeleteMessage reads “Video unavailable This video has been removed by the uploader”
DeleteNo surprise there, I knew this would happen. The edited version is now available here and if it gets removed from YouTube, it’s also available here.
The way “apostle” Van Tonder speaks is very entertaining, and if you don’t know your Bible he could come across as very convincing. His style and way of speaking reminds me very much of Gru in Despicable Me.
The funeral service recorded on video gets really interesting after 30 minutes when the three “apostles” really get into it. Comments to follow.
”Apostle” van Tonder
Delete34:55 “…He maketh me to lie down in green pastures. Yes, the green pastures for us who are likened unto the sheep of God, is certainly food for thought…”
Here’s some “food for thought”:
The Psalm starts with “The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.“; and sets the tone for the rest of the Psalm. The LORD as my shepherd, not the words of an officer as my shepherd! When we allow the LORD to see to our wants we will need nothing outside of Him. The green pastures are where we find rest and sustenance and settle down. Also read Ezekiel 34:11-24.
”Apostle” van Tonder
Delete35:10 “…because that which God has put within man that will live forever, is the soul of man, which no man has ever been able to look at…”
So you don’t believe that the first man Adam who was formed from the dust of the ground became a living soul after God breathed into his nostrils (Genesis 2:7)? Do you not know that the soul that sins shall die (Ezekiel 18:4)? Have you no fear of him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Matthew 10:28, Revelations 16:3)? Are you seriously unable to see the souls in your church? Are the souls in your church unable to touch (Leviticus 5:2), unable to eat (Leviticus 7:20, Deuteronomy 12:20), unable to work (Leviticus 23:30) and disobedient to the law (Romans 13:1)?
”Apostle” van Tonder
Delete35:25 “…after death when they do an autopsy, they could still never find the soul of man. They cannot take it out and put it in a jar and put it on the shelf with a label on “the soul of man”. No, it’s invisible, it’s spirit. It’s the life within man. That belongs to God…”
The word “soul” is translated from Hebrew, nephesh which means a breathing creature (Genesis 2:7).
Blood is the soul of the flesh (Genesis 9:4, Leviticus 17:11). The soul can be poured out till death (Isaiah 53:12).
Soul and spirit are as narrowly connected as blood and breath, without either you will die.
Paramedics are trained to bring someone back to life by checking for a pulse first. Chest compressions are used to get the blood pumping if there is no pulse. If there is a pulse they check for signs of breathing. Mouth to mouth resuscitation is used to get oxygen back into the blood. Both are essential for life, and even though they are connected, they are not the same.
The word “spirit” is translated from Hebrew, rûach which means wind or breath, figuratively life. God is the Giver of Life and the spirit returns back to God (Ecclesiastes 12:7, Luke 23:46, Acts 7:59). The word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces to the dividing of soul and spirit. God can pour His spirit out over us (Isaiah 44:3, Joel 2:28-29, Acts 2:17-18).
”Apostle” van Tonder
Delete36:17 “…yes I believe that God will never leave us as orphans, he will ensure that there will always be a shepherd. And that shepherd comes to us through this word of teaching (while motioning to your own mouth)…”
The unbiblical words of teaching from your mouth are in no way the biblical shepherd, how high-minded of you to even suggest it! Psalm 23:1-4 uses the language of a shepherd and his sheep to describe our relationship with God, not a modern day “apostle”. Jesus is the Good Shepherd who truly cares for His sheep—so much so that He laid down His own life for them (John 10:1–16).
Read what Peter, a true apostle of Jesus Christ wrote:
1 Peter 5:1-4
The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly;
not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
We are not orphans, it was expedient for Jesus to go away so that He could send the Comforter which is the Holy Ghost (John 14:23-28, John 16:7-11).
”Apostle” van Tonder
Delete38:20 “…for the prophet Cole, he says “apostle, hurry up, hurry up, I want the crown of victory, you must not speak too long now, for I have told them all these things before apostle, all the things that you are speaking to them now I have told them.”Yes prophet Cole, I know…”
Prophet Cole’s voice and the crown of victory is obviously only in your own imagination, the Bible mentions no such thing for which a dead person must wait while someone is preaching (1 Corinthians 9:24-27, 1 Thessalonians 2:19-20, 2 Timothy 4:6-8, James 1:12-16, 1 Peter 5:4, Revelation 2:10).
”Apostle” van Tonder
Delete38:37 “…but I have to trouble the waters again, I have to remind them, and when I trouble the water, the angel of the Lord will descend into that bath of Bethesda. This is the mind of understanding, but the angel must first trouble the water before there can come healing…”
Your blatant ignorance of what’s written in John 5:1-17 is most revealing of your so-called office of “apostle”. Nowhere does it say that the angel of the Lord has to trouble the mind of understanding to get healed, that’s all in your own imagination. It was Jesus that performed the miracle showing that He is greater than any sickness. The man was instantly healed when Jesus told him to rise, pick up his bed and walk. At no point did Jesus ever tell him to wait for an angel to trouble the water so that he could get in and be healed.
”Apostle” van Tonder
Delete40:25 “…thy rod and thy staff will comfort me. How will it comfort me? What is the rod, what is the staff? Yes, the shepherd of the Lord is the rod and the staff. The shepherd of the Lord, the one that comes to remind me, day after day as the prophet Cole did…”
Boy, you really are forgetful! Psalm 23:1 states that the LORD is my shepherd, nobody else! A shepherd typically carries a rod and a staff, not other shepherds to comfort his sheep! The rod is typically a sturdy stick with a knob on one end, like ‘n knop kierie. It’s used as a weapon to protect the sheep from wild animals. The staff is used as a walking stick and to maneuver sheep. The LORD provides protection and guidance and these are a comfort to His sheep.
”Apostle” Weyitile
Delete51:39 “…he came into the underdeacon office in 1970. Vir my, dit sê vir my, he lived for the church, he spent all his life in the Old Apostolic Church. He did not know any other God other than god in man, the Holy Spirit…”
Nowhere does the Bible state that being in the underdeacon office will help you to know the Holy Spirit, this is an OAC invention.
”Apostle” Weyitile
Delete52:00 ”…On the day of his birthday he came into the underdeacon office, so I want to change Psalm 23 now to Psalm fourteen-o-six for prophet Cole, because that was his birthday fourteenth of June. So this is him talking to us now, sharing his love with us, how he has travelled all this time with Christ in his life…”
You’re just as forgetful as your fellow “apostle” Van Tonder, you’re forgetting that the LORD is our Shepherd, not “prophet” Cole! Psalm 23:1-4 uses the language of a shepherd and his sheep to describe our relationship with God, not a modern day “prophet”. Jesus is the Good Shepherd who truly cares for His sheep—so much so that He laid down His own life for them (John 10:1–16).
Read what Peter, a true apostle of Jesus Christ wrote:
1 Peter 5:1-4
The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly;
not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
”Apostle” Weyitile
Delete55:48 ”…If you read John chapter ten verse eleven, it says I am a good shepherd and the good shepherd, what does he do, he sacrifices his life for the sheep. That’s what happened…”
57:03 ”…he sacrificed his life, apostel het nou gesê that prophet Cole was living for the benefit of others, how many officers have served him all these years, over fifty years as an officer. He was not living for himself …”
Let us add context because context is seriously lacking from your sermon.
John 10:7-11
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
I am the door of the sheep.
All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers:
but the sheep did not hear them.
I am the door:
by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy:
I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
I am the good shepherd:
the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
Throughout this whole passage Jesus is referring to Himself, nobody else! Your “prophet” Cole was a sinful man just like all the rest of us; he did not shed blood or die on a cross for God’s sheep! Jesus already paid the price for the Father’s sheep!
Hebrews 10:10-14
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
You clearly reject the one offer Jesus Christ made for ever by appointing for yourselves other shepherds over your flock! Not once have any of you given any praise to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, you worship yourselves!
”Apostle” Weyitile
Delete1:03:56 ”…Do I enjoy my life as a member of the Old Apostolic Church? Is there any other way to salvation other than this beloved in Christ? These are the things that prophet Cole is sharing today with us, that kept him going all these years in the church…”
I’m glad you asked those questions, but are you honest enough to accept the truth?
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:
no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
If you read the above verse very carefully, you will notice that Jesus made that statement, not a church! You will also notice that Jesus was referring to Himself in the first person, and He said that to His own apostles!
I encourage you to read the whole Bible and to be sincere in praying for guidance.
The REAL Jesus
Jesus is the ONLY Messiah
”Apostle” Fabrik
Delete1:09:14 ”…Beloved, this is the last handling to the soul…
…(mens ouer word raak die oë ook swak)…
”…Lord we pray thee, grant unto the soul life eternal, a crown of victory, the peace and glory of thy kingdom and the fellowship of thy saints, unto the honor and the glory of thy name in eternity, amen…”
”…(with outstretched arms) Blessed soul, depart now in peace, away from this world with its temptations, misery and grief. We surrender unto the earth that which belongs to the earth, and deliver the soul into the hands of God who gave it and who loves us in Jesus Christ unto eternity, amen…”
“…The Lord bless thee and He keeps thee, the Lord makes His face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee, the Lord lift up His countenance upon thee, and give thee peace, the Lord bless thee and keep thee unto eternal life, amen…”
”…May the love of God the Father, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit abide with us forever more, amen…”
God made the soul (Genesis 2:7, Jeremiah 38:16) and only God can decide where the soul spends eternity (Ezekiel 18:4-32). The last handling to the soul and the crown of victory is obviously only in your own imagination, the Bible mentions no such crown being received at the end of a sermon (1 Corinthians 9:24-27, 1 Thessalonians 2:19-20, 2 Timothy 4:6-8, James 1:12-16, 1 Peter 5:4, Revelation 2:10). The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 6:23). Rituals cannot replace a personal relationship with God; He can be worshipped without rituals.
Hi, good morning everybody, this is going to be a short video its just a small testimony. My name is Dave Coleman and you can check all my testimonies up on all the Old Apostolic links, just type in Dave Coleman. Brother Patrick Steer asked me to do this just to tel the, whenever I make a video tell the people who I am. This happened a couple of years ago, a friend of mine told me a very very beautiful story. He say there was a Elder at work, he say Dave this man was a unbelievable human being. He say even his words when he spoke to us was like a sof rain coming down from Heaven. He say what happened about two months before a Sealing where this Elder was ordained as an Overseer they didn’t know, nobody knew about it. He say this Elder was a very very very down to earth simple man, he use to drive the Hyster at work. And while he was on the Hyster very deep in the factory two doves flew in, white doves, pigeons. And they went to go sh sit on his shoulders on the right hand side and the left hand side. And everybody’s it was a wow moment for everybody because nothing like this ever happened in his entire life. And he say a month after that, or two months after that, that Elder got ordained as an Overseer. I tell you people, it’s a short story but it’s so beautiful where two pigeons, I’m just make an example, doves, flew into the factory, deep into the factory. White doves and went to go sit on his shoulders, the right side and the left side. He didn’t know at that time he’s going to become an Overseer, and he became an Overseer a month or two later. Thank you, I hope this will encourage you and it will make you want to go back to where you were supposed to be. Thank you very much.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.facebook.com/100025962737930/videos/346422544192577/
Ok br I have also lots of testimonys to tell I listen to your story's that's the truth, but I want to know why the elders and overseers don't take notice of dreams, dreamed by different members in different communities even a officer had the same dream, they dream of a certain member, br and sister, who must became priest, the same dream all of them had, and the overseer and elders select other members who isn't even active, missing in action you see him once a month not even by the daily activities, and his father is a elder, is that the reason. Or is it because he has status
DeleteJohan Miller What ever you do my Sister if it's not in God's plan you are going to pay for it. Spoke to Apostle Smith once he told my something very profound Sister.
DeleteAt many sealing services there is many Oversees ext that never entered into the kingdom. Why because they did exactly what you talked about. They use to think it's there church. They cry like baby,s but the door is close for them. Sorry is this a brother
David Coleman well it was a direct order from God who he want to lead, but ya it's not how truthful or active you stand, it's who you know
DeleteThanks for the story David. I think you should rather call your video a story that you heard, a testimony is something different.
DeleteDefinition of testimony
• a solemn declaration usually made orally by a witness under oath in response to interrogation by a lawyer or authorized public official
• firsthand authentication of a fact : evidence
• an outward sign
• an open acknowledgment
• a public profession of religious experience
• the tablets inscribed with the Mosaic law
• the ark containing the tablets
• a divine decree attested in the Scriptures
Your story doesn’t match any of the criteria to define it as a testimony.
Gedink die groep sal hiervan hou
ReplyDeletehttps://www.facebook.com/100025962737930/videos/597995904968782/
Die Bybel se in Hebreers 13vers 1
En onthou die wat die goue voetspore vir julle geleer het, die wat die woord van die Here aan julle verkondig het, dit is hulle wat vir julle bid, dat hulle dit bid uit ‘n blydskap uit, net nie uit ‘n gesug uit nie, want dit is hulle gebede wat verhoor word.
Dis ‘n baie mooi daad David, welgedaan, ‘n pluimpie vir u.
DeleteJakobus 1:27
Reine en onbesmette godsdiens voor God en die Vader is dít:
om wese en weduwees in hulle verdrukking te besoek en jouself vlekkeloos te bewaar van die wêreld.
Politici hou daarvan om die goeie dade wat hulle in die gemeenskap doen, te publiseer om meer stemme te kry.
Mattheus 6:1-4
Pas op dat julle nie jul liefdadigheid voor die mense bewys om deur hulle gesien te word nie;
anders het julle geen loon by julle Vader wat in die hemele is nie. Wanneer jy dan liefdadigheid bewys, moenie ‘n trompet voor jou blaas soos die geveinsdes in die sinagoges en op die strate doen, dat hulle deur die mense geëer kan word nie. Voorwaar Ek sê vir julle, hulle het hul loon weg. Maar jy, as jy liefdadigheid bewys, laat jou linkerhand nie weet wat jou regterhand doen nie, sodat jou liefdadigheid in die verborgene kan wees;
en jou Vader wat in die verborgene sien, Hy sal jou in die openbaar vergelde.
Terloops, die gevleuelde woorde wat u so moeiteloos aangehaal het staan nêrens so in die Bybel nie.
Hebreërs 13:1
Die broederliefde moet bly.