Carl George
Klibbe wrote on October 16th, 1913: “...4.
I believe that the Lord Jesus rules the Church through living Apostles, until
His return and that He has sent them into the world, and still sends just as He
was sent into the world by His Father, that they should teach and baptise in
His name and place, all nations on Earth...”
“…9. I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ will come again
as surely as He has ascended into Heaven, and by His glorified appearance the
first fruit of the dead and living who hoping for His coming, shall be changed
and united and that these His first fruit shall reign with Him as Kings and
Priests in the Kingdom of Peace, further that at the end of the time Jesus
Christ shall appear again to Judgment with His Saints, where all the remaining
living and the dead shall receive their judgment according to as they have been
living, good or evil…”
There’s
nothing strange or unexpected about these articles of faith as disputed
by an anonymous OAC member. Carl
George Klibbe
was sent to South Africa to establish the New Apostolic Church in 1889 and was called
to be an “apostle” by the “Apostle College”
in Europe in 1893. The church was incorporated under Act 31 of 1909 (Transvaal)
known as the New Apostolic Church (Africa) under the leadership of “apostle” Carl
George Klibbe.
Even today,
the NAC articles of faith
are almost identical to those typed in
the 1913 letter.
The Hersteld
Apostolische Zendingkerk and the Apostolic Church of Queensland (where
Klibbe was “sealed”) with the same Irving “roots” as the NAC and OAC, also believe that Jesus Christ will come again.
It was only
in 1915 that Carl
George Klibbe
declared his independence from the New Apostolic Church, the Apostle College
and Apostle Unity. After a court
case ruling at the end of 1926, Carl
George Klibbe
was ordered to stop using the name “New Apostolic Church”. Carl
George Klibbe
registered his church as “The Old Apostolic Church of Africa” in June,
1927.
Contrary to
popular belief by OAC members, their founding
father, “apostle” Carl
George Klibbe
literally believed that the Lord Jesus Christ will come again. The
letter above stands in stark contrast to what’s written in the OAC catechism.
Catechism of the Old Apostolic Church of Africa…Part 2;
Question 27 (pages 62-63):
“Has Christ
already come, or do we still expect him?” (Sic)
“Ans. (a) Because
the world expects that Christ will come on a natural cloud, they still look
forward to his coming. From Matt. 16 v. 28, it is however clear, that Christ
must already have come…”
“Ans. (b) From 2
Tim. 4 v. 7-8 it is clear that Christ must already have come during Apostle
Paul’s life on earth…”
“Ans. (c) For us
Christ has come, and we see Him, because it is revealed to us through the Holy
Spirit and is our life…”
Catechism of the Old Apostolic Church of Africa…Part 2;
Question 31 (page 65):
“On which clouds
will Christ appear?”
“Ans. We must not
confuse these clouds with natural clouds... It is the cloud of witnesses… It is
the same cloud under which the flock of God was led out of Egypt…”
 |
| OAC catechism interpretation |
A woman on an
OAC WhatsApp group dared to mention that Jesus would be coming back and
she was taken to task as follows:
OAC Admin member #...6600
wrote: “...Sorry just to ask, are you apostle ?
Please don’t get me wrong...”
OAC Admin member #...9345 sent
a picture of a man walking towards an open manhole.
OAC member #...8630 replied
with a voice note saying this lady is crazy for having the nerve of sharing her
uncalled for statement that Jesus is coming back and ended the note by calling her
a disgrace.
OAC Admin member #...6600
replied with a voice note saying that the group is for sheep and that the lady
is a goat who doesn’t know who Jesus Christ is by daring to mention that Jesus
will return...”
OAC member #...8906 wrote:
“...Then pray for others to see the light you don’t
judge them...”
OAC member #...8630 wrote:
“...No no don’t justify a bad thing pls its need to
be rooted out...”
OAC member #...9708 wrote:
“...Kahle
kahle [That’s fine] who is this person.
Send this person back to the Deacon n umzalwane
nodade [brother and sister] n learn again... I stand with Nkosi [Lord] yam asking the question
“Are we really all apostles or people u just add anyone in this group” thr is
no Jesus coming back he is already with is Acts 1...”
OAC member #...8630 wrote:
“...I think he or she realised now that is in the
incorrect group now let’s leave him or her will remove himself now...”
OAC member #...3060 wrote:
“...I think I know her...”
OAC member #...9708 wrote:
“...Please talk to her please...”
OAC member #...3060 wrote:
“...I will try...”
OAC member #...8630 wrote:
“...Please lol bring some sense to her...”
OAC member #...3060 wrote:
“...Admin remove her from this group...”
OAC member #...8630 wrote:
“...Lol pls pls kabawo
[my father] lets give her a chance may be she will repend...”
False apostles and false prophets cannot forge or counterfeit the
coming of the Son of man, the only way they can try is by attempting to deceive
people with false
interpretations.
Jesus warns us not to follow
them because they will say “Lo
here”
and then try convincing people that they (false prophets and false churches)
are Christ.
Matthew 24:23-28 Then
if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there;
believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets,
and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible,
they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if
they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth:
behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the
lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also
the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will
the eagles be gathered together.
To those
that are sincerely seeking the truth, there is good news; your soul salvation
is not dependent on some man-made organization:
John 3:16-21 For
God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever
believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not
his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him
might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that
believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of
the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come
into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds
were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to
the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to
the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Why don't you publish the rest of the publication? Why only selected pages? Something else there you do not want people to know? I dare you to publish the rest of the document!
ReplyDeleteI’m hoping to get access to the rest of the document and I would most certainly publish the rest of the document if I could. The letter is held by an elderly person whose grandfather was a fourfold officer. Unfortunately the letter was shared in parts with other members of his family and some of them can’t remember to whom they gave the other parts of the letter to or where those parts are stored/kept. I would love to share the letter in its entirety. Thank you for your interest and anyone else reading this post, please feel free to send any historic documents you may have in your possession. It would be a bonus if you could share the rest of Klibbe’s letter with me too. I dare you to share those documents with me :-)
DeleteYour copy reflect the true wording of the original letter that was published by Apostle Klibbe in 1913, it’s basically a copy of the one that was written by Apostle H. F. Niemeyer from Australia who sent him to South Africa. The Apostles since 1950 do not want people to know.
DeleteThis means that you have parts of a transcribed copy from a booklet with a Dutch cover, but English text. I am only aware of two complete copies in existence. Your cover copy does not even reflect the true wording of the original. The original cover was titled "De Oude Apostoliese Kerk van Afrika - Regels voor Apostoliks - Gepubliceerd in De Oude Apostoliese Kerk - Kopijrecht - 16de Oktober, 1913. It also contains the name of the press "Die Standard Pers Kaapstad". The relevant publication does not have a page 17. Only consists of 15 pages Dutch/Afrikaans and 15 pages English. You might have a version that was circulated through the Apostolic Church of South Africa, a group founded in 1930 by Hendrik Velde who joined the United Apostolic Church at the same time.
ReplyDeleteThe relevant article 9 that you do reference must be read in conjunction with the complete booklet as well as other texts such as The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty (Lacunza), Leade, Behment, Lee, Schwartz and others that pre-1895 stated that Jesus Christ returned with the establishment of a Church under Apostolic rule.
To quote Lacunza, as translated by Irving:
‘Therefore the prophecies cannot be understood as they speak, but in another better sense —the allegorical and spiritual; in which sense they have been verified, and are now verified in the present church.’
Then this copy must precede the one named “De Oude Apostoliese Kerk van Afrika - Regels voor Apostoliks - Gepubliceerd in De Oude Apostoliese Kerk - Kopijrecht - 16de Oktober, 1913” since the name “Old Apostolic” was only registered in 1927 after the court case of 1926.
DeleteCarl Klibbe operated as the New Apostolic Church prior to 1927 and this is also evident by the name “NIEUWE APOSTOLIESE KERK” where “NIEUWE” has had a line drawn through it. I doubt that Velde would re-use a letter “BIJ BEVEL VAN APOSTEL C.G. KLIBBE VOOR AFRIKA.”
Besides, 1930 is seventeen years after the letter was typed.
The letter is consistent with the New Apostolic Church confession of faith and there’s no reason to doubt that Klibbe believed the same thing in 1913.
NAC 9th article of faith:
I believe that the Lord Jesus will come again, as assuredly as he has ascended into heaven, and will transform the dead in Christ and those living bridal souls who have hoped for his coming and have been prepared for it, and take them to himself; that after the marriage in heaven with these he will return to earth to set up his Millennial Kingdom of Peace, and they will reign with him as kings and priests. After the end of the Kingdom of Peace he will hold the Last Judgment, at which all souls who have not taken part in the First Resurrection will receive their portion in accordance with their deeds, whether they have done good or evil.
https://www.nac-mgemnowa.org/greece_english/greece/about_us/faith/commitments/commitment.php?navid=12
The OAC confession of faith states the following:
Delete“WE BELIEVE…in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, born of the Father from eternity: God out of God and Light out of Light, truly God and of the same being as the Father; who for us as man and for our salvation, descended from heaven and became flesh, truly God and truly man, conceived by the Holy Ghost and born of the Virgin Mary; who suffered, was crucified, died, descended into hades and was resurrected on the third day; who ascended into heaven and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father, from where He cometh again in glory to judge the living and the dead…”
Notice the last bit: “from where He cometh again in glory to judge the living and the dead…”
Imagine that, the OAC confession of faith also refers to a second coming.
Do you believe in Jesus? Do you believe the words He spoke in the Bible? If your answer is “yes” to both questions then go read John 16:7.
Your research is done in the similar manner as the Freemen on the Land Movement. Am I correct?
DeleteHa ha ha :-)
DeleteThat’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it, I appreciate your sense of humor though.
Hi. As a Dutch speaker, the Dutch does look rather weird. Not consistent with pre-war Dutch that I'm aware of either - unless, being in South Africa but 8 years (?) before Afrikaans formally became a language, maybe that is where the bastardisation comes into play?
Deletee.g. "Apostoliese" is Afrikaans; Dutch would be "Apostolische". And "Apostoliks" is not Dutch at all, it would be "Apostels" or at worse "Apostolisch" or "Apostelieken". But -iks is not Dutch. Seems like they were making "Apostolics" guttural?
Also, "Kopijrecht" only applied in Holland from 1766/1803 to 1882, later replaced in 1912 with "Auteursrecht". Not sure about SA laws since SA was a British run colony in 1913.
Interesting though, and quite damning towards this OAC cult. Hope more pages will follow...
Bove mentioned point 9 compares with the current Confession of the Old Apostolic Church that states:
ReplyDeletefrom where He cometh again in glory to judge the living and the dead; and of whose kingdom there shall be no end; and in the Holy Ghost that speaketh through the prophets, whereby we bear the image of the Father, and that dwelleth in us and is our teacher and guide in all truth; and that He is one God.
The fact of the matter is that you have two pages that obviously seem to not be from the same document. A cover page that is Dutch/Afrikaans and a page (numbered 17) with part of a Confession of Faith in English.
ReplyDeleteYou have not confirmed the accuracy of the documents.
You can by no way be certain of its origin.
You do not know who typed it, or under who's orders it was typed.
It is an unconfirmed document that you claim is a letter from Ap. Klibbe.
You can not even provide certainty that it is an official document.
The fact of the matter is that the letter’s cover page has “BIJ BEVEL VAN APOSTEL C.G. KLIBBE VOOR AFRIKA.”
DeleteThe fact of the matter is that the church was incorporated under Act 31 of 1909 (Transvaal) known as the New Apostolic Church (Africa) under the leadership of Carl George Klibbe.
The fact of the matter is that according to the official Witwatersrand court settlement papers, Carl George Klibbe did in the year 1915 sever all connection with and declared its independence from the New Apostolic Church.
The fact of the matter is that the “Old Apostolic Church” was only registered as such in 1927.
I agree that there are pages missing and I do not deny this.
I agree that I believe the senior citizen in his 70’s when he says he inherited parts of the letter from his mom who inherited it from his grandfather who was a fourfold officer in the church.
It does not take rocket science to determine the articles of faith of the NAC.
It does not take rocket science to draw a logical conclusion that Klibbe was operating as the NAC during 1913.
It does not take rocket science to see how consistent the typed letter is with the NAC confession of faith.
It does not take rocket science to figure out that the articles of faith in English were a translation of the articles of faith in Cape Dutch.
By a process of elimination one can assume that page 16 at least had the first three articles of faith translated in English.
By a process of elimination one can assume that the preceding 15 pages are in Cape Dutch as per the printed version of “De Oude Apostoliese Kerk van Afrika - Regels voor Apostoliks”.
I would greatly appreciate it if you could send me the scanned pages of “De Oude Apostoliese Kerk van Afrika - Regels voor Apostoliks”, especially the articles of faith, and see how they match up.
...or must I explain the concept of Quantum Physics and String Theory to you. Because both scientific fields explain the existence of an ever present Christ.
ReplyDeleteIt’s interesting to note how your argument avoids Scripture. Do you have a Bible?
DeleteThe words “BIJ BEVEL VAN APOSTEL C.G. KLIBBE VOOR AFRIKA.” is not included in the original document. That alone places makes the document suspicious. Also the name of the Church on the original document is "De Oude Apostoliese Kerk van Afrika" and "The Old Apostolic Church of Africa". Your document is incomplete which means that you are unable to understand the context of it.
ReplyDeleteThe pagee (p 17) is part of the old Confession of Faith, and it is similar to the current version, as the current version is based on the 12 Articles of Faith.
Concerning Scripture, I will give you Scripture, but you won't like it.
The words “BIJ BEVEL VAN APOSTEL C.G. KLIBBE VOOR AFRIKA.” appears on the first page just above the words “KOPIJRECHT, 16de OKTOBER, 1913.”
DeleteThe words “NIEUWE APOSTOLIESE KERK.” appears at the top of the first page.
“De Oude Apostoliese Kerk” did not exist as a title before 1927.
Do the math, 1913 is fourteen years before the Old Apostolic Church was registered as a church.
The articles of faith are written very clearly, you don’t need a book to understand the context of it. The current version has obviously evolved from previous versions. As I said, you are welcome to send me scans of the articles of faith from “De Oude Apostoliese Kerk van Afrika”.
You’re welcome to give me Scripture. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
The Old Apostolic Church was registered on 10 January 1911 as "The New Apostolic Church (Africa) and by agreement with HFW Schlaphoff and CH Kreunen changed to The Old Apostolic Church in 1927.
ReplyDeleteThe New Apostolic Church (current) was registered in 1927.
Already in 1913 the name Old Apostolic Church was used.
All property that was acquired by the Church under Apostle Klibbe in the period 1892 to 1927 was carried over to the Old Apostolic Church, except for the hall in Claremont, Cape Town that was given to the NAC under Schlaphoff.
The majority of members (estimated 95%) stayed with Ap. Klibbe except for the Claremont Congregation and a few members in Johannesburg and Pretoria.
The Church established in 1892 is the current Old Apostolic Church, that was registered in 1911.
The church established in 1913 and registered in 1927 is the current New Apostolic Church.
You have two problems:
1. Your love for "alternative facts" (lies, false information), due to
2. Your confirmation bias issues.
Even though you have the agreement that was reached between Ap. Klibbe and Schlaphoff/Kreunen, you refuse to sit down and read it step by step.
Anybody can send you a falsified document and you will belief it. Never even check it's validity.
That’s what you say.
DeleteWhat the Supreme Court of South Africa (Witwatersrand Local Division) said:
“…the Church incorporated under Act 31 of 1909 (Transvaal) known as the New Apostolic Church (Africa) under the leadership of Apostle Carl George Klibbe did in the year 1915 sever all connection with and declared its independence from the New Apostolic Church, whose headquarters is in Germany which is subject to the jurisdiction of the Apostle College and Apostle Unity and under the leadership of Herman Niehaus of Quelle, Germany…”
“…That by reason of the aforegoing the said Carl George Klibbe on behalf of himself and all the congregations in Africa under him abandon the right to the use of the name New Apostolic Church (Africa) hitherto used by him and his Church and the various congregations thereof…”
“…This undertaking to take effect from 1st. June 1927…”
The full transcript can be viewed here:
http://oldapostolicchurchrevealed.blogspot.co.za/2016/09/history-court-case-432-of-1926.html
Enough said …or get a lawyer to explain it to you.
The church which you say was established in 1892 refers to the little congregation started by Klibbe in East London. It was the first New Apostolic congregation in South Africa. It’s the same little congregation that Schlaphoff was “sealed” in. What you neglected to mention is that Klibbe was sent as an “evangelist” by “apostle” Niemeyer from Australia to establish the New Apostolic Church in South Africa, Klibbe didn’t send himself. What you neglected to mention is that Klibbe was called to be an “apostle” by the “Apostle College” in Europe in a letter dated July 8th, 1893. Klibbe didn’t appoint himself as an “evangelist” or “apostle”.
You can read more here:
http://oldapostolicchurchrevealed.blogspot.co.za/2016/08/history-carl-klibbe.html
Nevertheless, I’ll kindly ask you again, please send me the transcripts (if you have them) of “De Oude Apostoliese Kerk van Afrika” so that everyone can see how the 9th article of faith corresponds to the letter you so vehemently oppose.
For interest sake you can see striking similarities between the 1913 letter’s 9th article of faith and that of the:
NAC 9th article of faith = http://www.nak.org/catechism/2-the-creed/24-the-new-apostolic-creed/249-the-ninth-article-of-faith/
Your anonymous reader is deviating from the point. The crux of the matter is that the OAC originally (C.G. Klibbe, who else!?) believed in the literal return of Jesus as per the English translation in the typed letter. Your anonymous reader basically confirmed the authenticity of the letter by writing:
ReplyDeleteThe pagee (p 17) is part of the old Confession of Faith, and it is similar to the current version, as the current version is based on the 12 Articles of Faith
Your anonymous reader seems to know more than they’re willing to share. Makes you wonder what they’re hiding.
You are obviously confusing the Millenialism of Darby here with the Pantelism of Irving. Irving stated, as he quoted Francis Lacy, Lacunza and Jane Leade, that the Second Coming is not a physical event where some god will come down from the clouds, but that it will happen when the full true Church has been restored.
ReplyDeleteDarby on the other hand developed the modern view of Pentecostalist Second Coming, that promotes a physical return.
In connection with the Confession of Faith of 1913: Article 9 is an immediate follow up on Article 8, that described the Holy Sealing. With the Sealing, the believer is raptured (in pentacostal language) and taken up into Heaven (the Kingdom of God), and with Christ, return to earth to testify (clouds of witnesses ) Heb 12: 1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Not every one has witnessed the "Second Coming" (which in itself is the wrong term). Only the True Church has witnessed Jesus Christ, and only those within the True Church, Christ has returned to make them part of Heaven. The world (those who are not part of the Body of Christ), rightfully is still awaiting the Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty.
The Kingdom of God is where the Will of God is done, and those doing the Will of God is therefore within the Kingdom. The Kingdom is not a physical space, but a willing surrender of a person. The planet earth is temporal and can therefore never hold the Kingdom of God, because the Kingdom is eternal. The soul is eternal, and can therefore become part of the Kingdom of God.
I’m not confusing Darby or Irving or whoever else you care to mention, I’m merely reading what’s written in plain English (also read Matthew 24:15-28, Mark 13:14-23).
DeleteArticle 8 states that baptized believers are sealed with the Holy Ghost.
This is immediately followed by article 9 that states “I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ will come again” without any ambiguity.
The articles are addressed to fellow believers with “I believe”, not “you believe” or “they believe”. By your reasoning, those that are “sealed” must then still be part of the world otherwise article 9 would’ve said something along the lines of “we who are sealed are coming to those still waiting for Him”.
Jesus will return in the same way as He left (Acts 1:9-11). Hebrews 12:1 refers to those who obtained a good report through faith but received not the promise, please read the preceding verses.
Jesus instructed us to pray “Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven”. The soul that sins must die (Ezekiel 18:4, Ezekiel 18:20) and it’s only through believing that Jesus is the Messiah that we are saved. The Kingdom of God is righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Luke 17: 21, Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
ReplyDeleteLuke 22: 29, And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
Luke 12: 32, Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
Mark 10: 14, But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Mark 9: 1, And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. (now where are these people today. Are they hiding).
1 Cor 12: 27, Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
Eph 5:30-31, For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
John 14: 20, At that day you shall know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.
Rom 12: 4-5, 4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
What is most interesting about your comments is that you want to decode a whole religious doctrine from one paragraph from an incomplete manuscript, while disregarding all previous documents, such as that written by Apostles of the Apostolic Movement, as well as those inspired by them.
You do not have any understanding of the history and doctrines of the OAC, Apostolic Movement or even your own current faith.
You have never ever seen or touched a document by the above named.
You are filled with hate, and to quote a fictional character "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate and hate leads to suffering."
You are angered due to something someone did to you, and now you tarnish everyone with the same brush.
You can only refer to one single paragraph and claim your interpretation is correct. Do yourself a favour, like I have, and find the literature on the subject. Both oh...of course you are not allowed to do that. Because some of you are warned by your pastors not to look into it, lest you be converted. They will say you are not spiritually mature enough to do it.
Get some other proof...if it exist. But take in mind the context of the author. Do not read something into a text. Read out of. Be objective and not subjective, as you currently are doing.
On my blog ( http://írvinɡísmexplaíned.bloɡspot.co.za / )is a reading list that is constantly updated as I get time, or as more information becomes available. But remember, they are on the index of forbidden books. Your'e pastor will tell you not to do it.
That’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it. I’m not interested in Irvingism, Irving was a false prophet. You obviously don’t believe it.
DeleteHi is your blogspot still active...cant seem to access it
DeleteYes, that's how you were able to make a comment :-)
DeleteI actually ment anonymous blogspot http://írvinɡísmexplaíned.bloɡspot.co.za
DeleteCant seem to access it
...but you are interested in the Old Apostolic Church! You can not understand the one without the other. But my point proven. You are to scared to study it deeper. Scared that you might be converted.
ReplyDeleteOnce again, that’s your opinion, and you are entitled to it. I am interested in the people still in the OAC and those on the outside being approached by members of the OAC. Been there already and then I discovered the truth. If I were scared, I wouldn’t have bothered with this blog in the first place. If I were scared I wouldn’t have bothered commenting on your various blogs only to have my comments blocked or deleted. But thank you for that, it motivated me to write my own blog, thanks. The good news is that Jesus died for your sins because of His love for you. Do you believe Jesus is the Messiah and that He died for you?
DeleteAnd let me extend my invitation to you once again (as I’ve done several times already) since you’re so keen to prove your point and accusing me of being scared and hateful, please send me full page scans of all the pages of “De Oude Apostoliese Kerk van Afrika”, my email address is ExOldApostolic@gmail.com. Put your money where your mouth is.
DeleteYou are also welcome to share your well read insights from different authors on how you personally interpret “I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ will come again” as written by (in your own words) “those within the True Church, Christ has returned to make them part of Heaven”. Let’s keep it simple and to the point without accusations and name calling :-)
First: Concerning your statement that Irving was a "false prophet". Can you validate that comment with any evidence from a primary source, like a book written by Irving himself?
ReplyDeleteSecond: I have spend a lifetime and a fortune to accumulate documents, and now you want if for free. You can submit a written request to the Head Office of the OAC for the document or permission to have it scanned.
Third: Copyright law forbid me from making copies or transcribing copyrighted work. It may only be made available 70 years after the death of the author. In this case, the author is a legal person that still exists.
Third: In accordance with the Audi Alter am Partem rule as well as the rules for evidence, I am allowed to state proof from any document within the belief system of the OAC to disproof any "alternative facts" that you may publish.
Fourth: Your'e blog is a blessing, as it gives me and other members of the OAC an opportunity to unmask you as a peddler of false information.
It is always strange to me that Biblialators like you would refer to "Jesus dying for our sins." Dying is something anyone can do, many people gave their life for other people. The wonder is in the fact that Christ descended into hell, and rose on the third day, ascended into heaven (Kingdom of God), sitting on the Right Hand of God, from where he and is servants (Rev 19 and 20) will come to judge the quick and the dead.
You can not move beyond the dying part, and therefore your faith is useless.
The authors I have referenced, did wrote books that was influential in the Apostolic Movement and the formation of the doctrines of the OAC. For instance, Irving, Drummond, Schwartz and others state in very clear terms where their ideas came from. The OAC itself is based on the doctrine developed during the period of 1823 to 1895. It is similar in the Dutch Reformed Church where they would reference Calvin or Luther and the same in the Roman Catholic Church who reference the Church Fathers and Doctors.
First: Yes, you can go read “The last days: a discourse on the evil character of these our times, providing them to be the "perilous times" of the "last days" written by Edward Irving himself, especially pages 21, 22 and 23.
DeleteSecond: I asked you to put your money where your mouth is. Your response says it all.
Third #1: The copyright term is fifty years from the end of the year of the author's death, or fifty years from publication if it is first published after the author's death.
Copyright shall not be infringed by any fair dealing with a literary work:
(a) For the purposes of research or private study by, or the personal or private use of, the person using the work.
(b) For the purposes of criticism or review of that work or of another work.
The above is provided that the source shall be mentioned, as well as the name of the author. The copyright in an address or other work of a similar nature which is delivered in public shall not be infringed by reproducing it, if such reproduction is for an informatory purpose.
Third #2: In accordance with the Audi Alter am Partem rule as well as the rules for evidence, I have allowed you to comment on my blog which is way more license than what I’ve been given on your blogs and facebook groups (I’ve been blocked or deleted).
Fourth: I know my blog is a blessing, thank-you for the confirmation and compliment :-)
Dying is indeed something that anyone can do, and yes, many people have been heroic enough to lay down their lives to physically save someone else. No greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends (John 15:13). Now the love of God is much greater (John 3:16-18), Jesus died on the cross (Mark 15:37-39, Luke 23:46-47, John 19:28-30) for our sins (Hebrews 10:10-14). I could quote more verses but I’ll leave it there for now.
You clearly did not understand my request concerning "with any evidence from a primary source". I asked "evidence FROM a primary source, not "name the primary source". The next is, have you ever read the book "The Last Days: A Discourse on the Evil Character of These Our Times, Providing Them to be the "perilous Times" of the "last Days""? NO, you just Googled it!
ReplyDeletehttp://oldapostolicchurchrevealed.blogspot.co.za/p/irving-last-days.html
DeleteThe book "The Last Days" is not about the end or destruction of the earth in dispensationalist (Darbyist) style. It is about the end of the "captivity" of the Jews (spiritual Jews - True Church), and the fall of Christianity into depravity. Irving stated that the True Church will be established, and Apostles be sent by Christ to rule over the True Church. This did occur with the advent of the Catholic Apostolic Church and the final restoration of the Church to True Form. Christianity has as Irving stated fallen into depravity as is obvious today, where the Church is not the servant of God anymore, but the servant of man. It is clear in Irving's Dedication to William Dinwiddie and William Hamilton, that the Christian Church of the 1800's is in a declining state. Irving mentioned the following problems that would, and eventually did led to Christianity's fallen state: Lovers of self, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, truce-breakers, false accusers (like you), incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, high-minded, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of Godliness but denying the power thereof.
ReplyDeleteAbove named would lead to the church being destroyed in similar fashion as what happened to the Jews in Jerusalem in 70ad. Irving like Lacunza, counted Christianity as part of the four-headed beast of the book of Daniel. The other three parts are Paganism (who was wounded but restored to health), Islam and Atheism.
Irving described the reason why the Christian Church was in ITS Last Days. Not the earth.
Much of Irving's conclusions was a combination of what was discussed during the Albury Conferences, as well as taken from other writers who stated the same. Such would include Francis Lacy, Isaac Newton, Jane Lead, Joseph Mede, Lewis Way, Bernard Lambert and others.
Current view of dispensationalism that you are trying to pin on Irving is in actuality the brainchild of an Irish Minister named John Nelson Darby, who influenced Schofield, John Alexander Dowie and in turn John G. Lake, who believed that the last days is about what you would read about in the Left Behind books (or movies if you are really lazy.
Just as God protected the first century Christians, during the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad, so would the True Church be protected.
http://oldapostolicchurchrevealed.blogspot.co.za/p/irving-last-days.html
DeleteThis anonymous irving groupie is an expert at digressing off the topic and accusing you of the very things he/she/they are guilty of...what a hypocrite.
ReplyDeleteWhat I want to point out is that there was never a period after his conversion to the Apostolic Faith, that Apostle Klibbe believed in a literal Second Coming. It was always the belief that the Second Coming is:
Delete1. Spiritual, and will occur at the same time that the Christian Church self-destructs.
2. Jesus Christ is not a physical person, but the Church which is described in the Bible as "the Body of Christ".
The act of Testimony is what happens when Christ with his Angels descent from Heaven to judge (Matt 25), and those who are found worthy (Sealing) will ascend (Baptism) into Heaven with Him (Christ) (Rev 19)
To many in the world or in the Christian Churches, Christ must still appear. It is not visible (Luke 17: 20) to the natural eye, but only to the Spiritual.
It is to describe it in more correct terms: Gnosis, the Act of Knowing, Enlightenment concerning the Heavenly matters.
As an example, the Brother who is active in the Church will not be involved in a bar fight due to his absence in the bar.
This was the belief from 1823 as it is today.
Wow I'm startled! My fellow OAC member here seems to be revealing that the OAC is not a Christian Church. I have always been aware of our disapproval of other denominations and have proudly participated in referring to anyone outside OAC as the "world" but I have never thought that we are not part of the Christian family, I innocently thought it is because we have a better understanding of the word of God.
DeleteI wonder what my fellow member would say about 2 Thessalonians 2: 1-4 about those denying the second coming of Lord Jesus Christ and exalting themselves as God.
Not only is my fellow member denying the second coming he also denies Lord Jesus Christ ever existing in human likeness despite overwhelming biblical evidence. John 1:14 among other scriptures testifying of Lord Jesus Christ as a physical person, who got crucified, died on the cross to redeem all believers from sin, which I am one of.
I do not know at this point in time if what I just read is indeed what my beloved OAC actually stands for or it is just the views of one person. I pray and trust the Lord to reveal that to me in due time.
Lastly I have not found the part in the scriptures that says believers must work seven days to earn their salvation as well as that of their ancestors.
I know and trust that the Lord will lead me to his truth.
"Jesus Christ is not a physical person" wow I am disappointed as a member of the OAC
DeleteHallelujah – Praise the Lord!
DeleteHow to sell like a pro, you are definitely in the minority of OAC members who believes in the One True Messiah, our Lord Jesus Christ. I don’t know which community you’re from or how long or how active you are in the OAC, but please don’t let any OAC member or officer try to convince you otherwise.
There are definitely heretical influences within the OAC trying to push the narrative that Jesus never physically existed, and also making use of books and other media to promote heresy within the OAC:
Members of Christ organization revealed
Here is some more reading material on this blog regarding the OAC’s history and doctrines:
History - The schism tree
History - OAC version
Doctrine - OAC’s version of Jesus
Doctrine - Waiting for Jesus
Doctrine - Apostles today
Of course there are plenty more where those came from.
Regarding your comment; “…I innocently thought it is because we have a better understanding of the word of God…”:
DeleteWe all thought the same thing until we really started reading the Bible in context and did comparisons with the OAC’s doctrines.
Doctrine - Earth
Doctrine - Light
Doctrine - Water
Doctrine - Kingdom of God
Doctrine - Spiritual vs Natural
Doctrine - Too vast
Doctrine - Bread breaking
We love your remark; ”…I have not found the part in the scriptures that says believers must work seven days to earn their salvation as well as that of their ancestors…”:
DeleteWe will post a relevant response below this comment for all those lost souls who believe they need to work for salvation.
SALVATION BY WORKS? SALVATION BY SECRET KNOWLEDGE?
DeleteLuke 23:38-43
And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew,
THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly;
for we receive the due reward of our deeds:
but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
What is the difference between the two malefactors who were crucified alongside Jesus?
WORKS AND DEEDS?
SECRET KNOWLEDGE, MYSTERIES AND SPIRITUAL INTERPRETATIONS?
No — the second malefactor acknowledges his guilt and acknowledges Jesus' innocence and Messiahship. He truly believes that Jesus can save him. Here is a man who literally grasps God's grace with his last breath of life.
No one can work for salvation; no one can earn salvation by works. Salvation is the gift of God by grace [Ephesians 2:8-10]. Our sinfulness makes our righteousnesses as filthy rags before a holy God [Isaiah 64:6]. God's standard is nothing short of perfection. Whoever keeps the whole law, but stumbles in one respect, is guilty of all [James 2:10]. So there is no way we can ever earn salvation.
Some will say faith without works is dead without looking at the context [James 2:14-18]. On closer inspection, James isn't saying we can earn salvation by works. True faith is demonstrated by good works as opposed to someone who claims to have faith but lives in wilful disobedience to Christ. One is expected to do good works because one is already saved; good works are evidence of one who is already saved. If someone loves God above all and their neighbour as themself then love is the driving force for their good deeds and the "works" will not be considered as "works" by them but rather as acts of love and charity. No one can ever earn salvation because we have already been bought dearly by the blood of Jesus [1 Corinthians 6:12-20, Hebrews 7:25-28, Hebrews 10:10-18].
John 3:16-21
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world;
but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned:
but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
As jy nog glo GOD GAAN EENDAG KOM JY GAAN JOU BLOU WAG WANT ONS GOD LEWE IN ELKE APOSTOLIC
DeleteDag sé so leer X my kinders.My dogtertjie van 7 aan my genoem my ma jys my God en x jou God,want God lewe in ons.En syt ook genoem syt op gelet ons is different van Ander kerke(klap NIE hande NIE )waai net.Sy wou dit op dit weet hoekom ons waai sjoe!my broer jy sal verbaas is wat uit ñ suigeling sé mond uit Kom,maar my antwoord was due Here is Mo's NIE doof NIE 🥰
DeleteAi julle, ken julle ooit die verskil tussen Jesus en die Heilige Gees wat Hy gestuur het?
DeleteJohannes 16:4-11
Maar hierdie dinge het Ek vir julle gesê, sodat wanneer die uur kom, julle kan onthou dat Ek julle dit gesê het. Maar Ek het julle dit nie van die begin af gesê nie, omdat Ek saam met julle was. En nou gaan Ek na Hom wat My gestuur het;
en niemand van julle vra My:
Waar gaan U heen nie? Maar omdat Ek dit vir julle gesê het, het droefheid julle hart vervul. Maar Ek sê julle die waarheid:
Dit is vir julle voordelig dat Ek weggaan;
want as Ek nie weggaan nie, sal die Trooster nie na julle kom nie;
maar as Ek weggaan, sal Ek Hom na julle stuur;
en as Hy kom, sal Hy die wêreld oortuig van sonde en van geregtigheid en van oordeel:
van sonde, omdat hulle in My nie glo nie;
en van geregtigheid, omdat Ek na my Vader gaan en julle My nie meer sal sien nie;
en van oordeel, omdat die owerste van hierdie wêreld geoordeel is.
Handelinge 1:6-11
Die wat bymekaargekom het, vra Hom toe en sê:
Here, gaan U in hierdie tyd die koninkryk vir Israel weer oprig? En Hy antwoord hulle:
Dit kom julle nie toe om die tye of geleenthede te weet wat die Vader deur sy eie mag bepaal het nie;
maar julle sal krag ontvang wanneer die Heilige Gees oor julle kom, en julle sal my getuies wees in Jerusalem sowel as in die hele Judéa en Samaría en tot aan die uiterste van die aarde. En nadat Hy dit gesê het, is Hy opgeneem terwyl hulle dit sien;
en ‘n wolk het Hom voor hulle oë weggeneem. En toe hulle nog stip na die hemel kyk terwyl Hy weggaan, staan daar twee manne in wit klere by hulle, wat sê:
Galilése manne, waarom staan julle en kyk na die hemel? Hierdie Jesus wat van julle opgeneem is in die hemel, sal net so kom soos julle Hom na die hemel sien wegvaar het.
Lees julle ooit die Bybel? Glo julle wat in die Bybel geskryf is of verdraai julle die Bybel om julle te pas?
I LEFT THE OAC AFTER 40 YEARS IN IT. I WAS A PRIEST AND MY FATHER AND ELDER. I STILL HAVE FAMILY MEMBERS IN OFFICE IN THE CHURCH. WHAT CAUSED ME TO RE THINK MY FAITH WAS THAT I WAS REPEATEDLY TOLD AND EVEN INSTRUCTED THAT THE SECOND COMING HAS HAPPENED AND THAT IT WILL NOT HAPPEN AS THE BIBLE DESCRIBES. ALSO, THAT GOD, CHRIST, THE HOLY SPIRIT, HEAVEN ETC. ARE ALL IN MAN... THE BIBLE SPEAKS MANY TIMES OF CHRISTS SECOND COMING... THE OAC IN ITS CONFESSION OF FAITH CLEARLY STATES THAT WE BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE AND IN THE FULFILMENT OF ALL PROMISES MADE. (ROUGHLY SAID, AS MY MEMORY IS GETTING CLOUDY)... I HAVE A PHOTO COPY OF THE DOCUMENT IN QUESTION AND REMEBER THAT APOSTLE KLIBBE CLEARLY STATES IN THE PART: RELIGION TO BE TAUGHT IN SUNDAY SCHOOL, IN QUESTION 4 ONWARD THAT JESUS CHRIST WILL COME AGAIN...
ReplyDeleteᏀenerallү I don't learn post on blogs, however I wish
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Thanks, quite great article.
Thank you so much for your encouraging comment, I appreciate it.
DeleteԜow! Thіs blog looks just like my old one! It's on a comⲣletely different subject bսt
ReplyDeleteit has pretty mucһ the same page layout and design. Outstanding choice of colors!
I’m glad that you enjoy my blog so much that you feel right at home. I hope you enjoy the depth of my posts, my good grammar, my lack of spelling mistakes and the fact that there are no advertisements ;-)
DeleteDid you not know that Blogger provides a standard set of templates for every blogger to use? Did you know that each template has a standard page layout, design and choice of colors? Is that your only reason for visiting this blog?
I UNDERSTAND THAT THE OAC MEMBERS HAVE BEEN PROHIBITED FROM DISCUSSIONS ON LINE... SO NO CONVESATIONS WILL LIKELY FOLLOW. I DO APPRECIATE THE INFO. MY DECISION TO LEAVE WAS NOT TAKEN LIGHTLY. I DO HOWEVER FEEL RELIEVED AND AT PEACE. I NOW ATTEND A DIFFERENT CHURCH AND AM VERY HAPPY. THEY PREACH THE SCRIPTURES AND NOT THE OAC'S WEIRD NATURAL/SPIRITUAL ETC. GOSPEL. THANK YOU AGAIN
ReplyDeleteThank-you so much for your uplifting comment. Comments like this are really very encouraging to me too. Thank-you.
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I never did this before, and we are indeed not allowed to comment on social media, I am active OAC member and I just have one prayer for those who don’t understand OAC and Apostle Klibbe! My is that may God have mercy on you and reveal Himself to you and show you His secrets about OAC! No words can explain what God has invested within OAC! Those who are blessed and chosen by God are shown everything and they sound nagging to those who use natural intelligence! Apostle have been part of NAC after church recovery from world war but the spirit of NAC he registered is not the same as the one that continued after the court ruled that he register OAC! Those who left OAC after being demoted or grew up within OAC must refrain from trying to justify their actions using natural intellect and pray harder because this is not child’s play!!!OAC is Jesus’s body on earth and that is the fact!....
ReplyDeleteWell done for daring to go against the policy of your own church by commenting on social media. It’s a significant step and I hope it continues. My prayer is that God may bless you richly and reveal His Truth to you. Please feel free to read the other articles on my blog; they address your concerns more directly.
DeleteThe REAL Jesus:
http://oldapostolicchurchrevealed.blogspot.co.za/2016/08/the-real-jesus.html
Jesus is the ONLY Messiah:
http://oldapostolicchurchrevealed.blogspot.co.za/2016/08/jesus-is-only-messiah.html
Good day to all the judges.
ReplyDeleteI am a neutral person that is seeking a spiritual organisation where the true God is living. After reading the above article I realized that I have found God. The author of the article is a Judge or is he a redeemer. He knows so much about this organisation. And I conclude that He must be God.
Or do I miss interporate completely.
My understanding is we must not judge, know matter what the situation.
You appear to be in denial of the history of the OAC. Is your owergestelde aware that you’re commenting on this blog? There’s a huge difference between judging and warning people against false prophets and false doctrines.
DeleteMatthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
The core message of this blog is one of defending biblical authority and proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. I compare the doctrines of the OAC with what’s written in the Bible, if that makes me a judge in your eyes, then I’m guilty as charged. If the shoe fits, wear it.
People tell me,
Delete“JUDGE NOT
LEST YE BE JUDGED”
I always tell them,
“TWIST NOT
SCRIPTURE LEST YE
BE LIKE SATAN”
It is sad to see Christians argue about each others beliefs. I am an active OAC member and was an officer in the church. This is not what faith or religion is about. All religions believe there doctrine is correct and the only way to salvation for the soul. Unfortunately we do not know if we will get salvation. We can only hope on salvation
ReplyDeleteIt is sad to see Christians who claim to be active in the church not knowing if they will get salvation, especially former officers. Jesus said He is the way, the truth and the life; let me introduce Him to you:
DeleteJesus of Nazareth
Jesus the Christ (Messiah)