Monday, 1 May 2017

Doctrine - 7th heaven

Good heavens!

OAC member #1 wrote: “...Everything that the Old Apostolics believe can be quoted from bible scriptures...”

OAC member #2 wrote: “...Ons kan als bewys waarin ons glo deur die skrifte...”
For those of you who don’t understand Afrikaans, this member is saying “...We can prove everything we believe in through the scriptures...”

The OAC Confession of Faith states: “...WE BELIEVE in the Holy Scriptures, the Old and the New Testament...”

OAC's seven heavens

OAC member #3 wrote: “...Die sewe hemele van die Ou Apostoliese Kerk is
i) Suster
ii) Broer
iii)Onder Diaken
iv) Priester
v) Oudste
vi Viervoud amp ( Opsiener ( herder en leraar ), profeet en evangelis )

Ons gaan in hemele soos die rangorde hierbo wys...”
For those of you who don’t understand Afrikaans, this member is saying “…The seven heavens of the Old Apostolic Church are
i) Sister
ii) Brother
iii)Under Deacon
iv) Priest
v) Elder
vi Fourfold office ( Overseer ( pastor and teacher ), prophet and evangelist )

We go into heavens according to the rankings shown above…”

OAC member #4 wrote: “...Die Hemele volgens ons Geloof is die hemele waarin elke lid hom/haar bevind.

Hierdie hemele is as volg

Oudste/Geneesheer van Israel

Hierdie is die 7 hemele wat Jesus deur beweeg het en toe in die hoogste hemel gaan sit het aan die regte hand van God...”
For those of you who don’t understand Afrikaans, this member is saying “…The Heavens according to our Faith are the heavens in which each member finds himself/herself.

Elder/Physician of Israel

This is the 7 heavens that Jesus moved through and then sat in the highest heaven at the right hand of God…”

An ex-OAC “elder” wrote: “…there are 7 Heavens. One for sisters; one for Brothers; one for Underdeacons; one for Priests; one for Elders; one for the fourfold ministry; and the Apostles and children share the same Heaven...”

As for me personally, when I was in the OAC I was taught the seven heavens as follows:
1) Child (this included someone new to the OAC irrespective of age)
2) Sister/Brother
3) Underdeacon and his sister
4) Priest and his sister
5) Elder and his sister
6) Evangelist/Prophet/Overseer and his sister
7) Apostle and his sister

Looking at the various statements it is clear that there isn’t much unity/agreement regarding where and how children and women fit into this hierarchy. When asked for direct references in scripture, OAC members will typically change the subject (by asking other questions/accusations/insults) and avoid giving direct answers defending their statements regarding the seven heavens and their composition. Unfortunately this is typical of my experience so far, even though many OAC members believe and even boast that everything they believe in can be proven in the Bible.

Even the OAC’s catechism is very vague regarding Heaven.

Catechism of the Old Apostolic Church of Africa…Part 2; Question 17 (page 56):
“What is Heaven?”
“Ans. : It is a condition of rest unto the soul, blessedness and peace that we will taste if we submit ourselves in the house of the Father and become small as little children. Such a child is an angel in heaven and beholds the face of the Father which is in heaven every day. (Refer Matt. 18 v. 10.)”

The verse quoted in the OAC catechism in defence of this statement is as follows:
Matthew 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Notice that the verse is talking about the angels of the little ones and not the little ones as angels. There’s also no mention of what Heaven is.

The concept of seven heavens is nothing new and seems to originate from one of two ancient religions, Hinduism and the ancient Babylonian cult.

In Hinduism the earth is believed to be the lowest of the seven “higher worlds”. The other six “higher worlds” above earth are believed to be places of increasing wonder and delight where people with good “karma” go after they die.

The seven heavens as taught by the ancient Babylonians were not meant for people. Their seven heavens were believed to be seven levels of space between the earth’s atmosphere and the spirit of the heavens. Each of these levels was associated with a particular god and a celestial body. The celestial bodies associated with each of these levels were believed to be the sun, Mercury, Venus, the moon, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn.

The concept of seven heavens is not unique to the OAC, but the composition is. As with Hinduism and the ancient Babylonian cult, there is no scriptural basis for seven heavens or the composition thereof.

So what does the Bible say? What does heaven mean? How many heavens are there?

According to Strong’s, the word “heaven(s)” in the Old Testament is translated from the Hebrew word shâmayim and is defined as:
to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve): - air, heaven (-s).

According to Strong’s, the word “heaven(s)” in the New Testament is translated from the Greek word ouranos and is defined as:
elevation; the sky; by extension heaven (as the abode of God); by implication happiness, power, eternity; specifically the Gospel (Christianity): - air, heaven, sky.

When we read the word “heaven(s)” in context throughout the Bible then we can identify three heavens.

One of the heavens we read of mentions atmospheric elements such as birds, fowls, clouds, rain, hail and snow (Genesis 1:20, Genesis 7:23, Genesis 8:2, Exodus 9:22-23, Exodus 16:4, Deuteronomy 11:11, Deuteronomy 11:17, Deuteronomy 28:12, Deuteronomy 28:23-24, Joshua 10:11, 2 Samuel 21:10, 1 Kings 8:35-36, 1 Kings 18:45, 2 Chronicles 6:26-27, 2 Chronicles 7:13, Job 35:11, Psalms 78:23-24, Psalms 79:2, Psalms 104:12, Psalms 147:8, Isaiah 55:10, Jeremiah 7:33, Jeremiah 15:3, Jeremiah 16:4, Jeremiah 19:7, Jeremiah 34:20, Ezekiel 29:5, Ezekiel 31:6, Ezekiel 31:13, Ezekiel 32:4, Ezekiel 38:20, Daniel 2:38, Daniel 4:12, Daniel 4:21, Daniel 4:33, Daniel 7:13, Hosea 4:3, Hosea 7:12, Zephaniah 1:3, Matthew 24:30, Matthew 26:64, Mark 14:62, Luke 17:29, Acts 14:17, James 5:18, Revelation 11:6, Revelation 11:12, Revelation 16:21, Revelation 19:17 etc.)

The other heaven we read of mentions celestial bodies beyond our atmosphere such as the sun, moon, stars and planets (Genesis 15:5, Genesis 22:17, Genesis 26:4, Exodus 32:13, Deuteronomy 1:10, Deuteronomy 4:19, Deuteronomy 10:22, Deuteronomy 17:3, Deuteronomy 28:62, Joshua 10:13, 2 Kings 23:5, Nehemiah 9:23, Isaiah 13:10, Jeremiah 8:2, Ezekiel 32:7, Daniel 8:10, Nahum 3:16, Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:25, Revelation 6:13, Revelation 8:10, Revelation 9:1, Revelation 12:1, Revelation 12:4 etc.)

The third heaven we read of is the dwelling place of God and mentions His throne, paradise and the tree of life which will allow us to live forever (Genesis 2:9, Genesis 3:22, Genesis 3:24, 1 Kings 8:30, 1 Kings 8:39, 1 Kings 8:43, 1 Kings 8:49, 1 Kings 22:19, 2 Chronicles 6:21, 2 Chronicles 6:30, 2 Chronicles 18:18, 2 Chronicles 30:27, Psalms 11:4, Proverbs 3:18, Proverbs 11:30, Proverbs 13:12, Proverbs 15:4, Isaiah 66:1, Matthew 5:34, Matthew 23:22, Luke 23:43, Acts 7:49, 2 Corinthians 12:2-4, Revelation 2:7, Revelation 4:2, Revelation 5:13, Revelation 16:17, Revelation 20:11, Revelation 22:2, Revelation 22:14 etc.) When the Bible says God lives in heaven, it doesn’t mean that God lives with the clouds or stars; it means that He is above us spiritually and not limited by time and space.

Paul describes a very different concept of heaven to what members of the OAC preach.

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Heaven is described as the New Jerusalem and the entrance to heaven is not automatic for people who have tried to be good or carry titles of some or other office.

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Entry will be granted only to those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life. The REAL Jesus, our ONLY Messiah is preparing a place for those who believe in Him.

John 14:2-6 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


  1. Just a little quote for Wikipedia:
    In religious or mythological cosmology, the seven heavens refer to the seven divisions of the Heaven, the abode of immortal beings, or the visible sky, the expanse containing the Sun, Moon and the stars.[1] This concept dates back to ancient Mesopotamian religions and a similar concept is also found in some Indian religions such as Hinduism, and in some Abrahamic religions such as Islam, Judaism and Catholicism.[2] Some of these traditions, including Jainism, also have a concept of seven earths or seven underworlds.

    I sugest you do much better research! The concept of Seven Heavens is also found in Christianity as the above statement would show. See also 2 Cor 12: 2-4.

    See you love copy and paste! Also credit those from whom you copy and paste.

    1. Your comment doesn’t explain the scriptural basis for seven heavens, neither its composition as per the OAC’s hierarchy. Did you notice that 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 doesn’t mention seven heavens and did you notice that I used it in my post?

      Catholicism doesn’t preach the concept of seven heavens; the “seven layers” comes from Dante’s Divine Comedy which is a symbolic narrative. You’re welcome to check out their link at and do a search for the word “heaven”.

      The OAC’s seven heavens do not correspond to mystical Judaism or any of the other religions. Rabbis have discussed the characteristics of the heavens in the Talmud for ages which varies with source. The Jewish mystical text (Zohar) claims there are 390 heavens and their followers believe you can make your way through these heavens if you pass certain tests and know the names of the guardian angels.

      Your comment is copy and paste from Wikipedia which makes very broad statements, if I wanted to simply copy and paste I would’ve just pasted links.

  2. Like most concepts in the Bible, the concept of the 7 Heavens comes from Sumerian/Babylonian/Persian/Greek sources. It is the same with the flood narative as described in the Epic of Gilgamesh, the 10 Commandments can is very much identical with Hammurabi's laws and the Egyptian Book of the Dead. Christian theology did not originate with the Jews and shows much similarity to the Aten cult of Egypt, Persian Zoroastrinism. Another example of Egyptian influence is the Hreat Hymn to the Aten written by Pharao Akhenaten, today known as Psalm 104.
    To state that something is from pagan origin is a type of pious fraud, while the whole religion of Judaism and Christianity originated from Egyptian/Sumerian/Babylonian/Persian and Zoroastrian sources. Christian influences from Hinduism is also possible as well as Buddhism. The similarities is to great to ignore. The Old Testament was compiled by a Priest named Ezra after the Babylonian exile. The New Testament incorporated much of Greek philosophy such as Plato, as well as Alexandrian Judaism, a system that differed from Judean Judaism.
    You can consult any University textbook on the Old and New Testament that will confirm the above.

    1. The concept of 7 heavens isn’t Biblical at all. There is no scriptural basis for a 7 heaven concept. As for the rest of your comment it is clear that you hate the Bible and you probably don’t agree with Paul in 2 Timothy 3:16-17. Ezra was used by God to collect together all the books of the Old Testament. Many Bible students also believe he wrote the books of Chronicles, Ezra and Psalm 119. As for the New Testament, did you read the part where Jesus said He is the way, the truth and the life? You don’t need a textbook to know Him through the Holy Spirit.

  3. The problem with Christianity came in the first century when some Bishops started to incorporate Roman paganism that was finally forced on the Church by Emperor Constantine in 325CE.
    Another question that should be asked on the original Christianity. Was it influenced by Hinduism or did it influence Hinduism.
    Concerning Dante; he had a huge influence on modern day Evangelicalism and Christian Fundamentalism.

    1. Your comment avoids the topic of this post and you’re reaffirming what I wrote:
      “...When asked for direct references in scripture, OAC members will typically change the subject (by asking other questions/accusations/insults) and avoid giving direct answers defending their statements regarding the seven heavens and their composition...”

      I don’t see how Catholicism, Hinduism and Dante defend your stance?

  4. ...and yes, I did copy and paste the Wikipedia reference, but not without quoting a source.
    It is my guess that you have only a matric certificate with maybe a technical qualification.

    1. Déjà vu:
      “...When asked for direct references in scripture, OAC members will typically change the subject (by asking other questions/accusations/insults) and avoid giving direct answers defending their statements regarding the seven heavens and their composition...”

  5. The fact Anonymous used an ad-hominem on you (questioning your education) means you've won the argument already. When someone resorts to personal attacks, it means they have no actual argument left...

  6. This comment has been removed by the author.

    1. Dear Timothy,

      I’m glad that we can both agree that the Bible is a wonderful book. Paul describes the scriptures really well in 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

      As for your comment in general, that’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it. It still doesn’t explain the scriptural basis for 7 heavens and the composition as per OAC hierarchy. You’re more than welcome to share your advanced knowledge of the Bible to defend the 7 heaven concept, thereby preventing another “holocaust and senseless religious war”.

    2. Timothy Dikgang has removed his comment:
      "...Dear OAC critic, You need to know the what role the Egyptian, Hindu, Persian, Greek etc history played in order for you to have in your hand the wonderful book called the bible.

      This will assist you to discuss with full-time OAC members about spiritual matters you wish in question.
      There is no quick fix in trying to understand the spiritual world.

      The first step is to respect and acknowledge the efforts and advancements made before the Bible was contextualized from the texts that came before.
      Without respect, you will always be an amateur clinching at every scripture that sounds like a valid statement/argument.
      Such intellectual appreciation and respect will help you to understand that when you see Egypt or Moses in your bible, that it speaks of spiritual entities existing in spiritual world. Not the physical Egypt as you see it.

      Fundamental Basics my friend:
      Knowledge, Respect, Appreciation then argument.

      Truly speaking, your knowledge of the bible is still basic and in your world, only you make sense.
      It is men like you who misinterpreted the Bible and led many countries to Holocaust's and senseless religious wars.

      Have a blessed day..."

  7. Doesnt anyone find it strange that so many officers in the OAC are jews.

    1. That wasn't my experience at all, in fact I never met a single Jew in the OAC. You'll need to give an example if that is your experience.

  8. T.O.K Apostel Vermaak (KZN en Namibië)
    Maandag 27 Mei
    27) Waar word die Koninkryk gevind? In die wêreld waarin ons vandag lewe, is daar baie mense wat oortuig is, dat hulle ander na die koninkryk kan lei. Die Here is baie duidelik in die verband.
    Luk 17v20-21.

    H.T.C Apostle Vermaak (KZN and Namibia)
    Monday 27 May
    27) Where is the Kingdom to be found? In the world we live in today, there are many who would like to convince others that they can lead one to the kingdom. The Lord is very clear in this regard.
    Luk 17v20-21.

    Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
    Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

    … there are many who would like to convince others that they can lead one to the kingdom … and that includes the OAC who misinterpret the verses above to mean that heaven is inside their heads (heart of understanding)… without reading the rest of that chapter (Luk 17:22-37), eish!!!

    Rom_14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

    1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

    When last has any OAC officer said that Jesus is the Lord and referred to Jesus Christ of Nazareth of 2000 years ago???

  9. T.O.K Apostel Vermaak (KZN en Namibië)
    Sondag 16 Junie
    16) Ons moet die Apostel Paulus nadoen, hy het ‘n besorgdheid gehad het vir die verlore skape van Israel en dat hulle ook aan die evangelie herinner moet word. Vir hierdie rede beweeg die engel van God deur die Hemel en verkondig die evangelie aan alle mense.
    Ope 14v6.

    H.T.C Apostle Vermaak (KZN and Namibia)
    Sunday 16 June
    16) We must emulate the Apostle Paul who had a concern also for the lost sheep of Israel and that they need to also be reminded of the gospel. For that reason the angel of God moves through Heaven, preaching to all people.
    Rev 14v6.

    Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

    … For that reason the angel of God moves through Heaven, preaching to all people… ??? Really???? Are the OAC’s apostles illiterate??? Are them that dwell on the earth in Heaven??? Is every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people in Heaven???